Yes and the quote from the calculator "furnaces & boilers after 1980 are to not have pilot lights" backs it up. So we all agree. I'll get right on those crankcase heaters for you.....<br><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">
On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 11:02 AM, Bishop, Bill <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:wbishop@pathfinder-ea.com">wbishop@pathfinder-ea.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US"><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Carol,<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">I’ll defer to Bruce’s expertise on furnaces. Between his comments below, and the note in 90.1, Table 6.8.1E that I quoted below (in my second question), it would appear that we should use 0 as the default eQUEST value for Furnace Fuel Auxiliary. You can still enter a non-zero value if modeling an old furnace, using your pilot light calculator to show savings as an ECM. Now Google “energy use of air conditioner crankcase heater” and help me figure out the eQUEST default for CRANKCASE-HEAT. ;)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Bill<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> Carol Gardner [mailto:<a href="mailto:cmg750@gmail.com" target="_blank">cmg750@gmail.com</a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, June 23, 2011 1:43 PM<br><b>To:</b> Bishop, Bill<br><b>Cc:</b> Bruce Easterbrook; eQUEST Users List</span></p><div><div></div><div class="h5"><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Furnace AFUE, Et, HIR and furnace fuel auxiliary<u></u><u></u></div>
</div><p></p></div><div><div></div><div class="h5"><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Hi Bill,<br><br>I agree with your conclusions but got curious about boilers and pilot lights and their usage. I have to admit to being fairly ignorant when it comes to gas using equipment. So I did what I usually do and Googled <i>energy use of a pilot light</i> and came across this nice little website:<br>
<a href="http://energyexperts.org/EnergySolutionsDatabase/ResourceDetail.aspx?id=4407" target="_blank">http://energyexperts.org/EnergySolutionsDatabase/ResourceDetail.aspx?id=4407</a><br>that had a link to a nice little calculator that can be used to calculate pilot light energy use:<br>
<a href="http://www.wisconsinpublicservice.com/home/gas_calculator.aspx" target="_blank">http://www.wisconsinpublicservice.com/home/gas_calculator.aspx</a><br>When you are in the calculator there is "more info" next to the furnace line and it includes the following information "natural gas furnaces and boilers have been required to have pilotless ignitions since 1980". That would mean that the eQUEST default should be modified to be 0, right?<br>
<br>Carol<u></u><u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal">On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 6:43 AM, Bishop, Bill <<a href="mailto:wbishop@pathfinder-ea.com" target="_blank">wbishop@pathfinder-ea.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p><div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Thanks Bruce.</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">I appreciate your insight on the reasonable range of furnace efficiencies. I was more concerned with how to model the baseline per minimum ASHRAE efficiencies. Using my question numbering, I’m going with these answers:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p><span style="color:#1F497D">1.)</span><span style="font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="color:#1F497D">Warm Air Furnace</span><u></u><u></u></p><p><span style="color:#1F497D">2.)</span><span style="font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="color:#1F497D">No pilot light</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p><span style="color:#1F497D">3.)</span><span style="font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="color:#1F497D">HIR=1.25</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Bill</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> Bruce Easterbrook [mailto:<a href="mailto:bruce5@bellnet.ca" target="_blank">bruce5@bellnet.ca</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, June 21, 2011 8:57 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Bishop, Bill<br><b>Cc:</b> eQUEST Users List<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Furnace AFUE, Et, HIR and furnace fuel auxiliary</span><u></u><u></u></p></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt">Hi Bill,<br>I don't have a project to pull up to get to these inputs. I believe I normally enter the AFUE, and 78% is an medium oil number and a low gas number. Typically most gas units on the market will give you a 92% AFUE for a condensing unit and a few are running in the 94% range. Oil you can get into the 84% range. Don't do condensing oil, no one is using the correct steel in the heat exchangers and they rot out after a few years. No units run with a pilot light anymore and you can see why, it is all spark ignition. I normally use a warm air furnace on a PSZ. Use 78% for oil and 92% for gas, no pilot light for either. You can adjust everything later on the heating/unitary power tab. Grain of salt, I don't do LEED work, just 90.1. For the project I have open I have a HIR of 1.08 and 0 auxiliary, gas. So I probably input 92% AFUE in the wizard, no pilot light.<br>
Bruce Easterbrook P.Eng.<br>Abode Engineering<br></span><br>On 21/06/2011 10:12 AM, Bishop, Bill wrote: <u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">When selecting “furnace” for the heat source, eQUEST adds 800 Btu/h for furnace fuel auxiliary (pilot light) as default. The default 800 Btu/h adds 12% to my baseline heating energy, so it is not trivial.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">ASHRAE Standard 90.1, Table 6.8.1E lists minimum furnace efficiency requirements.<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">What should I enter for Furnace HIR and Furnace Fuel Auxiliary for Baseline System 3 (PSZ-AC) and the new 90.1-2010 Baseline System 9 (Heating & Ventilation; Warm-air furnace, gas-fired)?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">First, which equipment type applies? Table 6.8.1E has three gas-fired equipment types – Warm Air Furnace, Warm Air Duct Furnace, and Warm Air Unit Heaters. I think both Systems 3 and 9 would be Warm Air Furnace, since packaged (System 3) and ventilation (System 9) systems would seem to preclude duct furnaces and unit heaters.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">Second, does the note, “Units must also include an interrupted or intermittent ignition device (IID)” mean that no pilot light should be modeled? This note to Table 6.8.1E does not apply to Warm Air Furnaces <225,000 Btu/h in 90.1-2004 or 90.1-2007, but applies to all Warm Air Furnaces in 90.1-2010. This is a LEED 2.2 project but the building is currently under construction.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">Third, Warm Air Furnace minimum efficiency is 78% AFUE or 80% E<sub>t</sub> . Should I use HIR=1.282 (78%) or HIR=1.25?<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks for your thoughts,<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">Bill<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><img src="cid:image001.jpg@01CC31AC.A6C0F060" alt="Signature
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<br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Carol Gardner PE<u></u><u></u></p></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Carol Gardner PE<br>