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<div class=WordSection1>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Hi all, <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>The advice to invert the efficiency and zero out the pilot light
is solid and something I’ve put into practice before as well… if
anyone was still on the fence =).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>If anyone’s interested, on a related note I’ve got a
top-secret baseline system calculator project… one of those pet projects
I’m sure many of us have undertaken…š It’s not complete yet
(and likely will be ready to go as soon as 90.1-2010 makes it obsolete), but I along
the way I have dug up and kept reference of a good resource for turning AFUE
ratings into HIR inputs:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>HIR = f(AFUE):š <i>[Reference: California Energy Commission's
2005 "Nonresidential Alternative Calculation Method (ACM) Approval
Manual"]<o:p></o:p></i></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>For single packaged central furnace (baseline system #3):š HIR =
(.005163*AFUE+0.4033)^-1<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>For Boilers where 75 ˜ AFUE < 80 (Baseline systems #1, #5
): HIR = (0.1*AFUE+72.5)^-1*100<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>For Boilers where 80 ˜ AFUE < 100 (Baseline systems #1, #5
): HIR = (0.875*AFUE+10.5)^-1*100<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>~Nick<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><img width=119 height=37 id="Picture_x0020_1"
src="cid:image002.jpg@01CC31B1.14F03240" alt="cid:489575314@22072009-0ABB"></span><b><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E'><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>NICK CATON, P.E.</span></b><b><span style='font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#CC9900'>SENIOR ENGINEER<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#CC9900'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>Smith & Boucher Engineers</span><span style='font-size:7.5pt;
color:#CC9900'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>25501 west valley parkway, suite 200<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>olathe, ks 66061<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>direct 913.344.0036<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>fax 913.345.0617<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><a href="www.smithboucher.com"
title="blocked::www.smithboucher.com"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>www.smithboucher.com</span></a></span><u><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:blue'> </span></u><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Carol
Gardner<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, June 23, 2011 2:01 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Bishop, Bill<br>
<b>Cc:</b> eQUEST Users List<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Furnace AFUE, Et, HIR and furnace fuel
auxiliary<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Yes and the quote from the
calculator "furnaces & boilers after 1980 are to not have pilot
lights" backs it up. So we all agree. I'll get right on those crankcase
heaters for you.....<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 11:02 AM, Bishop, Bill <<a
href="mailto:wbishop@pathfinder-ea.com">wbishop@pathfinder-ea.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Carol,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>I’ll defer to Bruce’s
expertise on furnaces. Between his comments below, and the note in 90.1, Table
6.8.1E that I quoted below (in my second question), it would appear that we
should use 0 as the default eQUEST value for Furnace Fuel Auxiliary. You can
still enter a non-zero value if modeling an old furnace, using your pilot light
calculator to show savings as an ECM. Now Google “energy use of air
conditioner crankcase heater” and help me figure out the eQUEST default
for CRANKCASE-HEAT. ;)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Bill</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> Carol
Gardner [mailto:<a href="mailto:cmg750@gmail.com" target="_blank">cmg750@gmail.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, June 23, 2011 1:43 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Bishop, Bill<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Bruce Easterbrook; eQUEST Users List</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Furnace AFUE, Et, HIR and furnace fuel
auxiliary<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Hi
Bill,<br>
<br>
I agree with your conclusions but got curious about boilers and pilot lights
and their usage. I have to admit to being fairly ignorant when it comes to gas
using equipment. So I did what I usually do and Googled <i>energy use of a
pilot light</i> and came across this nice little website:<br>
<a
href="http://energyexperts.org/EnergySolutionsDatabase/ResourceDetail.aspx?id=4407"
target="_blank">http://energyexperts.org/EnergySolutionsDatabase/ResourceDetail.aspx?id=4407</a><br>
that had a link to a nice little calculator that can be used to calculate pilot
light energy use:<br>
<a href="http://www.wisconsinpublicservice.com/home/gas_calculator.aspx"
target="_blank">http://www.wisconsinpublicservice.com/home/gas_calculator.aspx</a><br>
When you are in the calculator there is "more info" next to the
furnace line and it includes the following information "natural gas
furnaces and boilers have been required to have pilotless ignitions since
1980". That would mean that the eQUEST default should be modified to be 0,
right?<br>
<br>
Carol<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>On
Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 6:43 AM, Bishop, Bill <<a
href="mailto:wbishop@pathfinder-ea.com" target="_blank">wbishop@pathfinder-ea.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'>Thanks Bruce.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'>I appreciate your insight on the reasonable range of
furnace efficiencies. I was more concerned with how to model the baseline per
minimum ASHRAE efficiencies. Using my question numbering, I’m going with
these answers:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='color:#1F497D'>1.)</span><span style='font-size:7.0pt;
color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='color:#1F497D'>Warm Air
Furnace</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='color:#1F497D'>2.)</span><span style='font-size:7.0pt;
color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='color:#1F497D'>No pilot
light</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='color:#1F497D'>3.)</span><span style='font-size:7.0pt;
color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='color:#1F497D'>HIR=1.25</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'>Bill</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> Bruce
Easterbrook [mailto:<a href="mailto:bruce5@bellnet.ca" target="_blank">bruce5@bellnet.ca</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, June 21, 2011 8:57 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Bishop, Bill<br>
<b>Cc:</b> eQUEST Users List<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Furnace AFUE, Et, HIR and furnace fuel
auxiliary</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:13.5pt'>Hi Bill,<br>
I don't have a project to pull up to get to these inputs. I believe I
normally enter the AFUE, and 78% is an medium oil number and a low gas
number. Typically most gas units on the market will give you a 92% AFUE
for a condensing unit and a few are running in the 94% range. Oil you can
get into the 84% range. Don't do condensing oil, no one is using the
correct steel in the heat exchangers and they rot out after a few years.
No units run with a pilot light anymore and you can see why, it is all spark
ignition. I normally use a warm air furnace on a PSZ. Use 78% for
oil and 92% for gas, no pilot light for either. You can adjust everything
later on the heating/unitary power tab. Grain of salt, I don't do LEED
work, just 90.1. For the project I have open I have a HIR of 1.08 and 0
auxiliary, gas. So I probably input 92% AFUE in the wizard, no
pilot light.<br>
Bruce Easterbrook P.Eng.<br>
Abode Engineering<br>
</span><br>
On 21/06/2011 10:12 AM, Bishop, Bill wrote: <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>When
selecting “furnace” for the heat source, eQUEST adds 800 Btu/h for
furnace fuel auxiliary (pilot light) as default. The default 800 Btu/h adds 12%
to my baseline heating energy, so it is not trivial.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>ASHRAE
Standard 90.1, Table 6.8.1E lists minimum furnace efficiency requirements.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>What
should I enter for Furnace HIR and Furnace Fuel Auxiliary for Baseline System 3
(PSZ-AC) and the new 90.1-2010 Baseline System 9 (Heating & Ventilation;
Warm-air furnace, gas-fired)?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>First,
which equipment type applies? Table 6.8.1E has three gas-fired equipment types
– Warm Air Furnace, Warm Air Duct Furnace, and Warm Air Unit Heaters. I
think both Systems 3 and 9 would be Warm Air Furnace, since packaged (System 3)
and ventilation (System 9) systems would seem to preclude duct furnaces and
unit heaters.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Second,
does the note, “Units must also include an interrupted or intermittent
ignition device (IID)” mean that no pilot light should be modeled? This
note to Table 6.8.1E does not apply to Warm Air Furnaces <225,000 Btu/h in
90.1-2004 or 90.1-2007, but applies to all Warm Air Furnaces in 90.1-2010. This
is a LEED 2.2 project but the building is currently under construction.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Third,
Warm Air Furnace minimum efficiency is 78% AFUE or 80% E<sub>t</sub> . Should I
use HIR=1.282 (78%) or HIR=1.25?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Thanks
for your thoughts,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Bill<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p>
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border=0 width=496 height=123 id="_x0000_i1025"
src="cid:image003.jpg@01CC31B1.14F03240"
alt="Signature
in jpg form"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Equest-users mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a
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Carol Gardner PE<o:p></o:p></p>
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