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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Hi Robby,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I’d encourage you to save and review the .inp file I
shared on this thread (open in notepad). Therein you’ll find some
commentary speaking directly to this issue.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Appendix A describes the materials in these lightweight
constructions, and ASHRAE Fundamentals makes for a solid resource with regard to
an appropriate thermal mass for each layer. I have had reviewers
challenge my construction material properties, and it’s very easy to respond
when you have a well-documented approach. I do not doubt others’ baseline
construction masses are different due to different approaches and references
(or lack thereof), but provided the material properties used are appropriate
within reason, I would not be perturbed. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Even though 90.1 isn’t easy to cite in this regard, I would
consider it reasonable for a reviewer to question/challenge how construction thermal
mass is handled (for LEED or otherwise). It’s obviously a very
important variable with regard to modeled baseline/proposed performance, and
one of a variety of paths by which someone could “game the system”
if they were so inclined.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>One could continue to take the approach of “make both
match” with regard to thermal mass, but (a) it’s more work, and (b)
you’re probably missing out on a performance gain in most cases, unless
your proposed design is an even lighter-weight construction (i.e. a tin shed?).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>~Nick<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><img width=119 height=37 id="Picture_x0020_1"
src="cid:image001.jpg@01CC2FFD.8A6E0840" alt="cid:489575314@22072009-0ABB"></span><b><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E'><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>NICK CATON, P.E.</span></b><b><span style='font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#CC9900'>SENIOR ENGINEER<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#CC9900'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>Smith & Boucher Engineers</span><span style='font-size:7.5pt;
color:#CC9900'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>25501 west valley parkway, suite 200<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>olathe, ks 66061<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>direct 913.344.0036<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>fax 913.345.0617<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><a href="www.smithboucher.com"
title="blocked::www.smithboucher.com"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>www.smithboucher.com</span></a></span><u><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:blue'> </span></u><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Robby
Oylear<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, June 21, 2011 10:12 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Eric O'Neill; Bishop,Bill; Carol Gardner; Bruce Easterbrook; eQUEST
Users List<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] LEED Review Comment on U-Value Input Method<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>While I agree that modeling the baseline with some level of light
mass should be done to get more accurate results, it's difficult to understand
why 90.1 would not specify a mass value to model. The definition of a baseline
is a minimum value for comparison. How can LEED reviewers judge whether
or not you're taking the appropriate credit for thermal mass when the baseline
building done by one modeler will have a different mass value than one done by
another modeler?<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Values that are vague and undefined (process loads or
lighting plug loads in residential for example) are typically left the same
between both models. This allows for the factor to be accounted for, but
provides no credit to the proposed model. The same could be done for
thermal mass, to account for it in both models, but not provide credit.
Without a defined baseline, I don't see how one can justify whether or
not they've modeled the correct "lightweight" assembly mass value.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>-Robby<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 9:47 AM, Eric O'Neill <<a
href="mailto:ELO@michaelsenergy.com">ELO@michaelsenergy.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>I think some confusion stems from the
definition of “lightweight”. The fundamentals book discusses light
and heavy constructions in the radiant time series, and defines a few examples
in table 22, ch 30 (2005 handbook – NonRes Cooling and Heating Load
Calcs, Radiant Time Series Method). Light constructions are steel sidings, 2
inches of insulation, an airspace, and gyp board. It also defines medium and
heavy, with brick and heavyweight concrete, respectively. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>So when they say lightweight, I believe
they’re referring to something similar. I don’t believe
“lightweight” is intended to mean “no-weight” for the
reasons Bruce described. It seems to me they’re giving design teams the
opportunity to take advantage of a heavy exterior construction if it reduces
the peaks. They do ask that they conform with the lightweight assemblies,
which, in my opinion, just a U-value does not.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Eric</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'> <a
href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org"
target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of
</b>Bishop, Bill<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, June 20, 2011 11:01 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Carol Gardner; Bruce Easterbrook<br>
<b>Cc:</b> eQUEST Users List</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] LEED Review Comment on U-Value Input Method<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Carol,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>As we noted
earlier in this thread, we can’t find an explicit requirement that
layer-by-layer be used. It is strongly implied for at least the proposed in
Appendix G, and it is good practice for several reasons as Bruce describes
below. From the 90.1 User’s Manual – “The general rule for
the baseline building run is that all inputs must be identical to the proposed
design run, except for those features that are allowed to differ.” It
seems logical to extend this general rule to <i>input methods</i> as well as
inputs. Would you accept the modeling results if the proposed building was done
in TRACE while the baseline was done in eQUEST?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Bilbo</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'> Carol Gardner [mailto:<a
href="mailto:cmg750@gmail.com" target="_blank">cmg750@gmail.com</a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, June 20, 2011 11:30 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Bruce Easterbrook<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Bishop, Bill; Pasha Korber-Gonzalez; eQUEST Users List<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] LEED Review Comment on U-Value Input Method</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'>I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'>Bilizebub: could you point out the section in LEED or Std 90
that says that walls must both be layer by layer. Thanks.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt;
margin-left:.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'>On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 7:01 AM, Bruce Easterbrook <<a
href="mailto:bruce5@bellnet.ca" target="_blank">bruce5@bellnet.ca</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:13.5pt'>I think what is being
forgotten is "intent", and the accuracy of your model. So for
intent the desire of the powers that be is that smart design be used to reduce
the energy consumption of buildings. You should not be manipulating the
"system" to take credit for something which is not really a
credit. Your model should be as accurate as you can possibly make it with
reasonable effort. U-value construction is not accurate, all buildings
have mass. Mass serves to shave peaks. When you have a building
modelled with no mass as soon as the sun hits it you will have a cooling
load. With U-value construction the heat hitting the building is
immediately loaded on to the cooling system at 100%. This doesn't happen
in reality and you will oversize your cooling system. Therefore you have
designed an inefficient system, you are costing your client money because they
have to buy and operate a bigger cooling system than required. Logic and
good modelling dictate you account for mass. The baseline is a
"standard" building construction in use at this time and that is
defined, "lightweight steel construction". You don't get credit
for the mass of this building. However if you start adding mass
strategically to further load shift your peaks you should be able to take
credit for that. Besides U-value construction is the old school, brute
force technique when energy was cheap and we used spread sheets and
calculators. eQuest allows us to accurately predict the mass effect of a
building and we have the computing power to run this program sitting on our
desk. A good modeller is required to use all the tools at their disposal
to create the best base model they can so that the project people can assess
different techniques to reduce the energy usage of the building and the
economic costs of doing this. I think it is pretty obvious the evaluator
will reject a model not done layer by layer. They can't easily check the
base construction, the U-value method is not accurate and they are
overloaded. So it's file 13 and on to the next project.<br>
<span style='color:#888888'>Bruce Easterbrook P.Eng.<br>
Abode Engineering </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><br>
On 20/06/2011 09:03 AM, Bishop, Bill wrote: <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Like Pasha
mentioned, if you use layer-by-layer method in the proposed, you should use the
same method in the baseline, unless you want to argue that
“lightweight” <i>requires </i>the use of the U-value construction
method. I don’t see what advantage that serves, other than helping you
avoid the time of creating baseline envelope constructions. While
“lightweight” is not defined in 90.1, the baseline layer materials
and thicknesses are described in A3, so if you use the layer-by-layer method
for both baseline and proposed, and if there is a difference in the overall
mass of each wall construction, the modeling output will reflect that
difference. Both baseline and proposed constructions will have
“mass”, and if the proposed construction is optimized, there will
be energy savings.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>The eQUEST help
menu item for “EXTERIOR-WALL and ROOF” states that using
LAYERS rather than U-VALUE can result in greater computational time, but gives
more accurate results. Computational time is at the bottom of my eQUEST
concerns. I have not compared modeling results of LAYERS vs. U-VALUE. Delayed
construction appears to be required by Appendix G, is supposedly more accurate,
and I don’t see a good reason <i>not</i> to use it.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Billzebub</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><b>Error! Filename
not specified.</b></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;
border-color:-moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'> <a
href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Pasha Korber-Gonzalez<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, June 18, 2011 4:39 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> eQUEST Users List<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] LEED Review Comment on U-Value Input Method</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'>Following the other comments on this, I am confused and
worried too that if they are requiring to simulate mass in the baseline, then
how could we use Mass constructions as "passive" design strategies
and take credit for this type of ECM?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'>Directly from what I was reading in the 2007 code: Table
G3.1.5-Baseline Building Enevelope<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><em>Opaque Assemblies. Opaque assemblies used for new
building or additions shall conform with the following common, lightweight
assembly types and shall match the appropriate assembly maximum U-factors in
Tables 5.5-1 through 5.5-8:</em><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'>Doesn't the reference to "lightweight" assemblies
mean that you don't have to account for thermal lags (massing)?
This has always been my interpretation. Therefore, when it comes to
modeling the U-values for the assemblies with the U-value method versus the
layer method would be acceptable for your baseline simulations. Where
there is no requirement to show any type of massing effects it shouldn't matter
if you choose to use the U-value input method or the layer-by-layer method.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'>But--it is important for the simulator to understand that
when using eQuest (I can't speak for other simulation tools); the input method
has to be matched in both the baseline and proposed. You can't choose
U-value input for the baseline and layer-by-layer for the proposed, you have to
use the "apples-to-apples" approach for both models.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'>It will be a big issue if GBCI mandates that we have to use
only layer-by-layer inputs for compliance where Appendix G is clearly stating
that there is no need to account for thermal lag in the baseline building as it
states "lightweight" construction. Any type of thermal lag
characteristics in lightweight construction are negligible to the performance
of such constructions as required by Appendix G baseline inputs.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'>pkg<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'>On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 3:23 PM, Carol Gardner <<a
href="mailto:cmg750@gmail.com" target="_blank">cmg750@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'>I'll bite. What extends it to the baseline? I still see that
it just says to credit it to the proposed building. Wasn't this language
created to guide people to the fact that even if mass was added to a steel
framed building it still fell under the "steel framed" category and
not the mass? <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt;
margin-left:.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'>On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 2:07 PM, Bishop, Bill <<a
href="mailto:wbishop@pathfinder-ea.com" target="_blank">wbishop@pathfinder-ea.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Another piece of
the puzzle. >From the 90.1 User’s Manual, section on Baseline Building
Opaque Assemblies (p.G14 in 2004 ed.):</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>“The
baseline building is assumed to be steel framed no matter what the construction
of the proposed building. If the proposed building has thermal mass in the
exterior construction and this is a benefit in a particular climate, then the
mass is credited in the building performance rating method.”</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>So delayed
construction is the de facto method for modeling the proposed envelope, and by
extension, the baseline.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Bill</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><b>Error!
Filename not specified.</b></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;
border-color:-moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'> <a
href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org"
target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of
</b>Carol Gardner<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, June 17, 2011 4:40 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Daniel Knapp<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] LEED Review Comment on U-Value Input Method<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt;
margin-left:.5in'>But the Simulation General Requirements are for the
simulation model itself and it's capabilities, they do not address the
simulation inputs.<br>
<br>
I think this section of the code is what governs this issue:<br>
<br>
Opaque Assemblies. Opaque assemblies used for new buildings or additions shall
conform with the following common, lightweight assembly types and shall match
the appropriate assembly maximum U-factors in Tables 5.5-1 through 5.5-8:<br>
<br>
But I disagree with Guarav's interpretation for these reasons. The use of the
word assemblies might "suggest" the need to model the whole structure
but the use of "lightweight" in the sentence, and it's location after
the word <u>shall</u>, is the key. Those U-values in Tables 5.5-1 through 5.5-8
are for lightweight construction. Lightweight construction is not delayed
construction. The Standard 90 committee even gave us a variety of wall types to
select from on those tables so that we would have an <i>appropriate assembly
maximum U-factor</i> to use.<br>
<br>
Anyway, that's my interpretation.<br>
<br>
Carol<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'>On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 9:24 AM, Daniel Knapp <<a
href="mailto:danielk@arborus.ca" target="_blank">danielk@arborus.ca</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><br>
FYI, Simulation General Requirements as laid out in 11.2 of the 90.1 User's
Manual specifically call for the treatment of Thermal Mass Effects in the
Minimum Modeling Capabilities. (see 11.1.2.3 and as already mentioned
G2.2.1.c) and notes that "A building's ability to absorb and hold heat
varies with its *type of construction* and with its system and ventilation characteristics.
This affects the timing and magnitude of loads handled by the HVAC
system. Simulation programs must be able to model these effects".<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt;
margin-left:.5in'><br>
<br>
On 2011-06-16, at 7:15 PM, Mehta, Gaurav wrote:<br>
<br>
> Michael,<br>
><br>
> Agreed, appendix G does not specifically states that one needs to model
delayed construction. However, going by the semantics used in Appendix G, one
can conclude that delayed construction should be used. Consider the following:<br>
><br>
> Table G3.1-5 Building Envelope, under Baseline Building Performance, part
(b) Opaque Assemblies: states that Opaque assemblies......shall confirm with
the following common, lightweight assembly types and shall match the
appropriate assembly U-factors.....<br>
><br>
> **The use of the term 'assemblies' suggests the need to model the whole
assembly rather than only the U-factor**<br>
><br>
> To answer your other question, how do you know what comprises of the
baseline opaque assembly, I'll suggest use Appendix A. For example, for steel
framed walls, see section A3.3.1 General, you'll find the assembly layers that
you can use to model the baseline above grade walls. Similarly, you can use
respective sections for roof, floor, etc. to determine the baseline assembly
layers.<br>
><br>
> If I remember correctly, somebody in the past has been kind enough to post
the baseline assemblies that can be copied to the inp file (or imported into
the inp file). Search the archives.<br>
><br>
> Furthermore, eQUEST has an extensive library of materials that one can
use, which includes the thickens, specific heat and density of the material.
You can create your own materials by using the ASHRAE Handbook of fundamentals,
chapter 26 (2009).<br>
><br>
><br>
> Thanks.<br>
><br>
> Best regards,<br>
><br>
> Gaurav<br>
><br>
> Gaurav Mehta, LEED® AP BD+C<br>
> Sustainable Building Analyst<br>
> Stantec<br>
> 1932 First Avenue Suite 307<br>
> Seattle WA 98101<br>
> Ph: <a href="tel:%28206%29%20770-7779" target="_blank">(206) 770-7779</a><br>
> Fx: <a href="tel:%28206%29%20770-5941" target="_blank">(206)
770-5941</a><br>
> <a href="mailto:Gaurav.Mehta@stantec.com" target="_blank">Gaurav.Mehta@stantec.com</a><br>
> <a href="http://www.stantec.com/" target="_blank">www.stantec.com</a><br>
><br>
> The content of this email is the confidential property of Stantec and
should not be copied, modified, retransmitted, or used for any purpose except
with Stantec's written authorization. If you are not the intended recipient,
please delete all copies and notify us immediately.<br>
><br>
> Please consider the environment before printing this email.<br>
> -----Original Message-----<br>
> From: <a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org"
target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [mailto:<a
href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
On Behalf Of James Hansen<br>
> Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 3:09 PM<br>
> To: Bishop, Bill; Michael Mantai; <a
href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
> Subject: Re: [Equest-users] LEED Review Comment on U-Value Input Method<br>
><br>
> Michael, I'd advise that you email the project coordinator (or whatever
GBCI calls the "head" of a project review team). Usually they
will answer relatively quick and easy questions so that you don't have to risk
improperly addressing a comment.<br>
><br>
> Ask them where in Appendix G it specifically requires the time delayed
method be used.<br>
><br>
> GHT Limited<br>
> James Hansen, PE, LEED AP<br>
> Senior Associate<br>
> 1010 N. Glebe Rd, Suite 200<br>
> Arlington, VA 22201-4749<br>
> <a href="tel:703-338-5754" target="_blank">703-338-5754</a> (Cell)<br>
> <a href="tel:703-243-1200" target="_blank">703-243-1200</a> (Office)<br>
> <a href="tel:703-276-1376" target="_blank">703-276-1376</a> (Fax)<br>
> <a href="http://www.ghtltd.com/" target="_blank">www.ghtltd.com</a><br>
><br>
><br>
> -----Original Message-----<br>
> From: <a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org"
target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [mailto:<a
href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
On Behalf Of Bishop, Bill<br>
> Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 4:22 PM<br>
> To: Michael Mantai; <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org"
target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
> Subject: Re: [Equest-users] LEED Review Comment on U-Value Input Method<br>
><br>
> Michael,<br>
><br>
> My understanding has always been that delayed construction should be<br>
> used, though I can't find exact wording in Appendix G that requires it<br>
> other than G2.2.1(c). For other components/layers of steel-framed walls,<br>
> look to A3.3.1, and to Table A3.3 for assembly U-Factors for different<br>
> stud spacing. You should be pretty close to the required U-Factor if you<br>
> use the correct materials and thicknesses from A3.3. Yes, you may need<br>
> to tweak a layer or two to get the construction to match the U-Factor<br>
> exactly. As described in other posts, once you create these<br>
> constructions for the baseline, copy them for future models.<br>
><br>
> Regards,<br>
> Bill<br>
><br>
> -----Original Message-----<br>
> From: <a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org"
target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
> [mailto:<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org"
target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] On Behalf Of
Michael<br>
> Mantai<br>
> Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 4:00 PM<br>
> To: <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
> Subject: [Equest-users] LEED Review Comment on U-Value Input Method<br>
><br>
> We received the following comment on recent LEED review:<br>
><br>
> "The simulation input screenshots, provided in the EAc1 modeling<br>
> narrative<br>
> report, indicate that the exterior wall and roof constructions were<br>
> modeled<br>
> as QUICK surface type (U Value Input specification method), which does<br>
> not<br>
> account for the time delayed heat flow through the constructions as<br>
> required<br>
> by Section G2.2.1(c). Revise the Proposed and Baseline models so the<br>
> exterior walls and roof surface types are modeled as DELAYED (Layer<br>
> Input<br>
> specification method) with the thermal mass effects of the constructions<br>
> taken into consideration. In addition, provide a revised LV I report for<br>
> each model reflecting the changes."<br>
><br>
> Section G2.2.1(c) describes modeling software requirements, but I don't<br>
> see<br>
> anywhere else in Appendix G that specifies that thermal mass effects<br>
> have to<br>
> be included in the baseline model.<br>
><br>
> Previous review comments on other projects have led me to believe that<br>
> U-value input was the correct method to set up the baseline model.<br>
><br>
> If I revise the model to input each layer, what layers do I input?<br>
> 90.1-2007 Appendix G states to use steel-framed walls, and the Tables<br>
> provide minimum R-value for insulation and overall assembly U-value.<br>
> But it<br>
> does not appear to provide such other items as stud spacing, sheathing,<br>
> or<br>
> even what material is on the outside of the building (for exterior<br>
> walls).<br>
> Has anyone else had this type of comment before or are you using the<br>
> layer<br>
> input method for baseline models? It seems that if I need to specify<br>
> layers, the resultant U-value should equal exactly the minimum U-value<br>
> per<br>
> the 90.1 tables. That would lead me to believe that there might be<br>
> different combinations of layers that result in the same U-values but<br>
> result<br>
> in different energy use in the baseline, and obviously I would want to<br>
> have<br>
> the highest energy use for LEED purposes.<br>
><br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Equest-users mailing list<br>
> <a
href="http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org"
target="_blank">http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org</a><br>
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> <a href="mailto:EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG" target="_blank">EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG</a><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
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> _______________________________________________<br>
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><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Equest-users mailing list<br>
> <a
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><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'>—<br>
Daniel Knapp, PhD, LEED® AP O+M<br>
<a href="mailto:danielk@arborus.ca" target="_blank">danielk@arborus.ca</a><br>
<br>
Arborus Consulting<br>
Energy Strategies for the Built Environment<br>
<a href="http://www.arborus.ca/" target="_blank">www.arborus.ca</a><br>
76 Chamberlain Avenue<br>
Ottawa, ON, K1S 1V9<br>
Phone: <a href="tel:%28613%29%20234-7178%20ext.%20113" target="_blank">(613)
234-7178 ext. 113</a><br>
Fax: <a href="tel:%28613%29%20234-0740" target="_blank">(613) 234-0740</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Equest-users mailing list<br>
<a href="http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org"
target="_blank">http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org</a><br>
To unsubscribe from this mailing list send a blank message to <a
href="mailto:EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG" target="_blank">EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><br>
<br clear=all>
<br>
-- <br>
Carol Gardner PE<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><br>
<br clear=all>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='color:#888888'>-- <br>
Carol Gardner PE</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<pre style='margin-left:.5in'>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre><pre
style='margin-left:.5in'>Equest-users mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre><pre
style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'><a
href="http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org"
target="_blank">http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre
style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>To unsubscribe from this mailing list send a blank message to <a
href="mailto:EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG" target="_blank">EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG</a><o:p></o:p></pre></div>
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<br clear=all>
<br>
-- <br>
Carol Gardner PE<o:p></o:p></p>
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