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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I have also used eQuest as a “well field modeling tool,”
but have grown to avoid this practice where I can – I’ll get to why
in a minute…<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Convoluted and time consuming as it is, eQuest actually can make
for a pretty powerful tool for determining GLHX behavior in the near and long
term, but you must have solid inputs/assumptions for the important variables
(many) and a model that well-represents the heating/cooling loads that are
intended to be designed around. I’ve heard if from guys who’ve
done GLHX design/commissioning all day that eQuest is highly regarded in some such
circles from a “science of geothermal design” perspective, as it
allows for rigorous control of so many variables and really does things on an
hourly basis, but operating it for design is at best iterative and can be very time-intensive
if you aren’t VERY proficient and do it often.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>It’s fair to note there are software packages out there
(free and for-cost) which are much easier to use to determine an annual
temperature profile, even if they don’t all have the same rigor as what
can be modeled on an hourly basis using eQuest. If your goal is to simply
come up with an annual temperature profile of reasonable accuracy, and not
necessarily to design/commission well field installations, you can achieve your
goal much faster by either (A) using a separate loop design software, or (B)
engaging whoever is/was responsible for the well field design to produce an
annual temperature profile. Be prepared to bring your own monthly
heating/cooling loads incident on the loop to the table.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Best of luck!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>~Nick <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><img width=119 height=37 id="Picture_x0020_1"
src="cid:image001.jpg@01CC261C.8AC07430" alt="cid:489575314@22072009-0ABB"></span><b><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E'><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>NICK CATON, P.E.</span></b><b><span style='font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#CC9900'>PROJECT ENGINEER<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>Smith & Boucher Engineers</span><span style='font-size:7.5pt;
color:#CC9900'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>25501 west valley parkway<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>olathe ks 66061<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>direct 913 344.0036<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>fax 913 345.0617<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><a href="www.smithboucher.com"
title="blocked::www.smithboucher.com"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>www.smithboucher.com</span></a></span><u><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:blue'> </span></u><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Demba
Ndiaye<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, June 06, 2011 4:25 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Otto Schwieterman; TaylorRoberts@Eaton.com<br>
<b>Cc:</b> equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Question on a L2LHP with a Lake/Well GLHX<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Do you mean the temperature of the fluid returning from the
ground-loop heat exchanger?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I have relied on that at times, but it is not perfect. If
someone knows a better way ….<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>______________<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Demba NDIAYE<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Otto
Schwieterman<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, June 06, 2011 4:56 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> TaylorRoberts@Eaton.com<br>
<b>Cc:</b> equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Question on a L2LHP with a Lake/Well GLHX<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Taylor,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Make sure you specify the size for all of the water side
equipment (Loop-to-Loop Heat Pumps, Boilers, and Pumps). If I let eQUEST size
this equipment with a central geothermal system the default sizes are way off
and the model does not give the results that you would expect.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>You may want to consider using load management and equipment
controls so the system operates in eQUEST as you want. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>When you get close I would recommend creating a ground
temperature schedule for the Ground Loop Heat Exchanger if the loop is a ground
source loop. The Lake/Well loop gets the ground temperature from the weather
file that is used (you have to select a lake/well loop for a central system).
Has anyone created a ground loop temperature schedule? If you have, how did you
determine the ground temperatures? My plan is to create the model as a
geothermal heat pump system, get the ground temperatures from the hourly
reports and create a schedule from the results. This is very time consuming but
it is the most accurate way that I can think of to get the proper ground
temperatures. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=codeword>LAKE/WELL
The loop return temperature is set equal to the temperature given by
LOOP-TEMP-SCH, if specified. If LOOP-TEMP-SCH is not specified the monthly
ground temperature from the weather file is used. This option allows you to
simulate water-wells, lakes, and rivers, where the temperature of these sources
is driven by factors other than the loop thermal demands. Since the supply
temperature is fixed by the schedule, all keywords pertaining to the ground
field definition are ignored.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=codeword>
Note that a GROUND-LOOP-HX of TYPE = LAKE/WELL can be attached to
CIRCULATION-LOOPs of TYPE = WLHP, CW (condenser water), or LAKE/WELL.
This allows chillers or other water-cooled components to be attached to heat
sinks like a lake, well, or river rather than a cooling tower or outside air.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Good luck,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Otto<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Paul Riemer
[mailto:Paul.Riemer@dunhameng.com] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, June 06, 2011 3:32 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'TaylorRoberts@Eaton.com'<br>
<b>Cc:</b> equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Question on a L2LHP with a Lake/Well GLHX<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Taylor, <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Whenever anyone says VAV, I hear VAV with reheat so if you have
reheat the following might help.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I believe the L2L heat pump assumes one refrigerant circuit,
such that if it sees load on both loops it will have to meet both loop
temperature set points regardless of the magnitude of either load. So a
lift of around 88 (= 130-42). Do you want that and thus your boiler is
truly back up? You can end up with the tail wagging the dog where you
punish the efficiency of the heat pump in cooling to meet a little reheat
load. Or would you rather have your boiler operating as a reheat boiler
or in series with your condenser water heat exchanger?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I have worked more with the banks of water to water heat pumps
that provide simultaneous heating and cooling by having some heat pumps in each
mode, thus none working against the huge lift. I end up modeling those as
separate chilled water and heating water plants. No its not perfect but with
the lake/well loop you were already going to be assuming a temperature profile
and disconnecting your equipment from any model representation of lake/well
capacity. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Those are very different approaches in design and in modeling,
so I’d consider which you want. Good luck.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#5F574F'>Paul Riemer, PE, LEED AP</span></b><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:#C4262E'>DUNHAM</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:#5F574F'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Patrick
Keeney<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, June 06, 2011 2:29 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Brian Fountain<br>
<b>Cc:</b> equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Question on a L2LHP with a Lake/Well GLHX<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Thanks for your responses, Brian.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Where do you find these help files that you mentioned?
Are you talking about the tutorial and reference PDFs in eQUEST, or is there
something more comprehensive like full project examples with the pd2 and
inp files?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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<p class=MsoNormal><br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>On Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 3:02 PM, Brian Fountain <<a
href="mailto:bfountain@greensim.com">bfountain@greensim.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>The added pumping power is likely from the default 200 ft of
static pressure on the lake/well ground loop. Try changing this.<br>
<br>
I've only played with 1 of those system types but I found it was very sensitive
to the 4 temperatures on the "Miscellaneous" tab of the chiller (and
the defaults were not helpful -- but the values in the help file were.<br>
<br>
Wish I could be of more help -- good luck.<br>
<br>
Brian <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><br>
<br>
On 6/6/2011 2:12 PM, <a href="mailto:TaylorRoberts@Eaton.com">TaylorRoberts@Eaton.com</a>
wrote: <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<div>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Hello
everyone,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I
am trying to model a HVAC system that is composed of a central geothermal
system that uses a heater/chiller with back up boilers to provide hot and
chilled water to AHU for a VAV air-side system. Following the advice I found on
the archives from the Loop to Loop Heatpump in eQuest discussion I modeled a
system with a L2LHP that uses a lake/well loop (see screen shot). I made sure
to zero out the static head for the GLHX and changed the max hot water temp in
the hot water loop to 130F to be compatible with a heatpump. I compared this
system to a basic chiller/boiler VAV system to see if it showed any signs of
improvement and the results have been very puzzling. The geothermal system is
using slightly less energy to cool but isn’t providing any heating to the
system. Instead the boilers are providing all of the heating. When I remove the
boilers to make the L2LHP provide all of the heating it is performing terribly
using an enormous amount of electricity to heat. Also, I assumed that there
would be a pumping power increase but the L2LHP is using about 3X the
electricity as the boiler/chiller system and this seems way too large. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Has
anyone had any luck modeling a system like this or has any ideas why my L2LHP
model is using more energy than a standard chiller/boiler system? <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b>Taylor
Roberts, EIT</b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Energy
Solutions Intern<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Energy
Solutions Group<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>E
M C Engineers, Inc.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Eaton's
Electrical Services & Systems<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><a
href="tel:970-208-7917">970-208-7917</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><a
href="mailto:TaylorRoberts@Eaton.com">TaylorRoberts@Eaton.com</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p>No virus found in this message.<br>
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Version: 10.0.1382 / Virus Database: 1511/3684 - Release Date: 06/06/11<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
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<br>
-- <br>
Patrick J Keeney<br>
MArch-MSSD Candidate<br>
410-299-5627<o:p></o:p></p>
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