<html><head><style type="text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></head><body><div style="font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:10pt">From my understanding of 62.1 you can use natural ventilation if the windows are within 25' of the areas that require ventilation.<br><br>I have seen designs where windows with trickle vents are specified. I don't see a whole building exhaust requirement in 62.1-2004. I did notice where bathrooms require exhaust per Table E-2.<br><br>What section is a whole building exhaust specified?<br><br>Paul Diglio<br><div><br></div><div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 10pt;"><br><div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><hr size="1"><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> Kathryn Kerns <kathryn.kerns@bceengineers.com><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> Cam
Fitzgerald <cam@energyopportunities.com>; "Bishop, Bill" <wbishop@pathfinder-ea.com>; Paul Diglio <paul.diglio@sbcglobal.net>; M. Shields <mshields@fstrategies.com>; equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Fri, May 20, 2011 12:13:10 PM<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> RE: [Equest-users] Supply Fan Power<br></font><br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;">I may have missed something earlier, but I think apartment
buildings according to ASHRAE 62.1 require a whole building exhaust to ensure
ventilation. This is usually taken care of by intermittent use of the toilet
exhaust fan system. I think 62.1 says something like you can achieve adequate ventilation
by running the exhaust fan intermittently at something like 70 cfm for a period
of time (which I can’t remember) or running it continuously at 30 cfm.
So, if the toilet exhaust is being used for this purpose, it becomes part of
the HVAC system and is not separate. The laundry and kitchen exhaust fan
systems are process oriented and are part of the process loads. The apartment
minimum OSA requirement is usually provided by a bunch of little holes in a panel
connected to some of the windows.</span></font></p>
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<p class="section1" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><strong><b><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">Kathryn Kerns</span></font></b></strong><font color="navy"><span style="color: navy;"></span></font></p>
<p class="section1" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><em><b><i><font color="navy" face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: navy; font-weight: bold; font-style: normal;">Systems Specialist</span></font></i></b></em><font color="navy"><span style="color: navy;"></span></font></p>
<p class="section1" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><em><b><i><font color="teal" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-variant: small-caps; color: teal; font-weight: bold; font-style: normal;">BCE</span></font></i></b></em><strong><b><font color="teal" face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-variant: small-caps; color: teal;"> </span></font><font color="teal"><span style="font-variant: small-caps; color: teal;">Engineers, Inc.</span></font></b></strong></p>
<p class="section1" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><strong><b><font color="navy" face="Times New Roman" size="1"><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: navy;">| Ph: 253.922.0446 | Fx: 253.922.0896 |</span></font></b></strong><font color="black" size="1"><span style="font-size: 7pt; color: black;"> </span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font color="black" face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; color: windowtext; font-weight: bold;">From:</span></font></b><font color="black" face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; color: windowtext;"> equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">On Behalf Of </span></b>Cam Fitzgerald<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Friday, May 20, 2011 8:36 AM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> Bishop, Bill; Paul Diglio; M.
Shields; equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Equest-users] Supply
Fan Power</span></font><font color="black" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman"; color: windowtext;"></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Good morning, all,</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Try looking at it
this way. Exhaust fans (separate fans or components of the proposed HVAC unit)
that operate continuously during occupied periods in conjunction with the HVAC
systems serving the adjacent areas should be included in the Baseline system
fan power calculated using Section G3.1.2.9. Exhaust fans that operate
intermittently during occupied periods should be considered process loads and
modeled with the same airflow, power, and schedule as the proposed case fan. If
the fan motor efficiency is regulated in Section 10 (1 HP and larger) and the
proposed design used higher efficiency motors, savings for the improved
efficiency may be claimed.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Hope this helps!</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></font></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Cam</span></font><font color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> S. Fitzgerald, PE, LEED AP</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="green" face="Arial" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: green;">Energy Opportunities, LLC</span></font><font color="green" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman"; color: green;"></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="green" face="Arial" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: green;">a 7group company</span></font><font color="green" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman"; color: green;"></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">phone: (717) 292-2636 x11</span></font><font color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">fax: (717) 292-0585</span></font><font color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"></span></font></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font color="black" face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; color: windowtext; font-weight: bold;">From:</span></font></b><font color="black" face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; color: windowtext;"> equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">On Behalf Of </span></b>Bishop, Bill<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Friday, May 20, 2011 11:29
AM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> Paul Diglio; M. Shields;
equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Equest-users] Supply
Fan Power</span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Paul,</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">True, makeup air can
come from windows or infiltration, but it still constitutes a load that is met
by heating and cooling coils if there is a thermostat. Are you going to model
the baseline toilet-exhaust-only system and zone with those coils to handle the
loads? If yes, use the same G3.2.1.9 system type as the rest of the project and
be done with it. If no, you are either going to have a problem with unmet
heating/cooling hours, or you’re considering the zone unconditioned and
the toilet fan is a process load that should be modeled identically between the
baseline and proposed models.</span></font></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Bill</span></font></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font color="black" face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; color: windowtext; font-weight: bold;">From:</span></font></b><font color="black" face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; color: windowtext;"> Paul Diglio [mailto:paul.diglio@sbcglobal.net] <br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Friday, May 20, 2011 11:12
AM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> Bishop, Bill; M. Shields;
equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Equest-users] Supply
Fan Power</span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"> </span></font></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">The makeup air can come from operable windows or infiltration and does
not necessarily need to be conditioned.</span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;"><br>
Paul Diglio</span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><b><font color="black" face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; font-weight: bold;">From:</span></font></b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;">
"Bishop, Bill" <wbishop@pathfinder-ea.com><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> M. Shields
<mshields@fstrategies.com>; Paul Diglio
<paul.diglio@sbcglobal.net>; equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Fri, May 20, 2011 11:03:05
AM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> RE: [Equest-users] Supply
Fan Power</span></font><font color="black" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman"; color: windowtext;"></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Maybe this is the source of the
confusion. I <i><span style="font-style: italic;">disagree</span></i> that toilet
exhaust fans constitute independent HVAC systems that have to modeled
separately in the baseline. To me, toilet exhaust, kitchen exhaust and clothes
dryer exhaust are all components of the system that heats, cools and ventilates
the zone(s). The air handlers, heating and cooling coils that serve these zones
are designed to supply and condition the ventilation air that is exhausted, regardless
of whether or not the exhaust is at the air handler or through a zonal exhaust
fan. Yes, a toilet exhaust fan can operate with the HVAC system off, but the
makeup air has to come from somewhere, and it needs to be heated/cooled (even
if indirectly by mixing with the room air). I mentioned previously that I
usually omit exhaust fans in baseline systems. Another reason I do this is
because eQUEST zonal exhaust fans cannot operate when the system fan is off.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">My personal interpretation of G3.2.1.9 is
that <i><span style="font-style: italic;">if</span></i> you choose to model
separate supply and exhaust fans in the baseline system, the calculated
baseline fan power is split up into supply and exhaust components so that their
total power equals the calculated value. I do not think G3.2.1.9 requires you
to model separate fans for any reason. It only adds complexity and modeling
effort, not baseline fan energy.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Regards,</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Bill</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: windowtext; font-weight: bold;">From:</span></font></b><font color="black" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: windowtext;">
equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">On Behalf Of </span></b>M. Shields<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Friday, May 20, 2011 10:48
AM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> 'Paul Diglio';
equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Equest-users] Supply
Fan Power</span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I agree the toilet exhaust system would
be independent, but I guess I am having trouble coming up with an example of an
exhaust system which is not independent other than an ERV which seems to be
covered under G3.1.2.10. Thus if everything other than ERVs are
independent, why does G3.1.2.9 specify exhaust as one of the systems to be
included in that calculation?</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></font></p>
<div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: windowtext; font-weight: bold;">From:</span></font></b><font color="black" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: windowtext;"> Paul Diglio
[mailto:paul.diglio@sbcglobal.net] <br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Friday, May 20, 2011 10:37
AM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> M. Shields;
equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Equest-users] Supply
Fan Power</span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"> </span></font></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Michael:<br>
<br>
Would not the toilet exhaust be an independent system? It does not return
air to the HVAC system and can operate with the HVAC system off.<br>
<br>
I am modeling a residential high rise and am modeling the kitchen exhaust hoods
as an independent system. In my case the toilet exhaust fans have been
eliminated and the toilet/apartment exhaust air is returned to an ERV.
Each apartment is being supplied with ventilation air from a DOAS. In my
case, I will model the toilet exhaust as part of the HVAC system.</span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> </span></font></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Paul Diglio</span></font></p>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">
<hr align="center" width="100%" size="1">
</span></font></div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><b><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-weight: bold;">From:</span></font></b><font size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> M. Shields
<mshields@fstrategies.com><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Fri, May 20, 2011 10:25:43
AM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Equest-users] Supply
Fan Power</span></font></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Thanks for all of the comments. I
think I may have figured out how the reviewer got confused.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">As part of my documentation I provided a
table which showed the supply and exhaust cfm, bhp, and kw as calculated from
G3.2.1.9 for the baseline building. I then showed the same for the
proposed building using the actual equipment specified. The building has
stacks of apartment units, each stack has an exhaust riser which has a
continuously running fan on the roof. I am interpreting everything
correctly now, the baseline building should only list the supply cfm, bhp, and
kw as calculated from G3.2.1.9 which includes the fan power from this exhaust
riser. The proposed building would then use the actual supply fan and
exhaust fans specified.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Does this seem like the correct
path? Alternatively the exhaust riser could be modeled separately in both
buildings using the proposed equipment as a process load.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></font></p>
<div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: windowtext; font-weight: bold;">From:</span></font></b><font color="black" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: windowtext;">
equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">On Behalf Of </span></b>Bishop, Bill<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Friday, May 20, 2011 9:51 AM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> Nick Caton; Patrick J.
O'Leary, Jr.; equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Equest-users] Supply
Fan Power</span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Michael,</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I’m confused by your LEED
reviewer’s comments. As Patrick mentioned, it would help to know what the
reviewer means by “independent fan systems”. I can think of only
two situations where you would need to model identical fan power in the
baseline and proposed models. One is if you have no heating and/or cooling
system in the proposed design, in which case the proposed system “shall
be identical to the system modeled in the baseline building design” per
Table G3.1(10.). Since you mention that you used the actual fan power in the
proposed building, I’m assuming that heating and cooling systems have
been specified for your proposed design.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">The other situation is for process loads. If you have fan power associated
with non-HVAC systems, it should be treated as a process load and modeled
identically between the baseline and proposed designs. An example of this that
has been discussed on this forum previously is parking garage exhaust.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I rarely model anything but supply fans
in the baseline model unless there are process loads. I see no point in
modeling return, exhaust or relief fans. The fan power calculated in G3.1.2.9
is for the sum of supply, return, exhaust and relief fans. The baseline systems
have to move the same amount of air regardless of the combination of fan types,
and the fan power is based on, and entered as, kW/cfm, so you will end up with
the same fan energy in the baseline model regardless of how many fans you model
for each baseline system.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I don’t know what the reviewer is
trying to say with their comment about system types 1 through 8 and Table
G3.1.1A.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Regards,</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Bill</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></font></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><img id="_x0000_i1026" src="cid:1.3947549367@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com" alt="Signature in jpg form" width="496" height="123"></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></font></p>
<div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: windowtext; font-weight: bold;">From:</span></font></b><font color="black" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: windowtext;"> equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">On Behalf Of </span></b>Nick Caton<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Friday, May 20, 2011 9:50 AM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> Patrick J. O'Leary, Jr.;
equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Equest-users] Supply
Fan Power</span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Color me concerned… This reviewer
may have an argument but I can’t reason it. I think he/she may be
leading us off the path regarding what the baseline fan power calculations
apply to…</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">You’ve got exhaust fans in a proposed
model matching the construction documents. Sounds okay so
far… Going through this line by line:</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></font></p>
<p class="msolistparagraph"><font color="#1f497d" face="Symbol" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Symbol; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">·</span></font><font color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman" size="1"><span style="font-size: 7pt; font-family: "Times New Roman"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">
</span></font><font color="#1f497d"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I would start
with directing the reviewer to the glossary. The entry for “<i><span style="font-style: italic;">HVAC system</span></i>” reads: the equipment,
distribution systems, and terminals that provide, either collectively or
individually, the processes of heating, ventilation, or air conditioning to a
building or portion of a building.”</span></font></p>
<p class="msolistparagraph" style="margin-left: 1in;"><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">o</span></font><font color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman" size="1"><span style="font-size: 7pt; font-family: "Times New Roman"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></font><font color="#1f497d"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Clearly, an exhaust fan providing
ventilation to a building independent of other systems is an HVAC system.
The reviewer’s phrasing of “..independent fan systems of the HVAC
systems” is a misinterpretation.</span></font></p>
<p class="msolistparagraph" style="margin-left: 1in;"><font color="#1f497d" face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Courier New"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">o</span></font><font color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman" size="1"><span style="font-size: 7pt; font-family: "Times New Roman"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></font><font color="#1f497d"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Building on the understanding that an independent exhaust
system is a complete HVAC system, Table G3.1.10.a is as far as you need to go for
support of following the construction documents.</span></font></p>
<p class="msolistparagraph"><font color="#1f497d" face="Symbol" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Symbol; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">·</span></font><font color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman" size="1"><span style="font-size: 7pt; font-family: "Times New Roman"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">
</span></font><font color="#1f497d"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I’d again
reject the reviewers’ choice of words: Exhaust fans are not
“independent fans of the HVAC systems.”</span></font></p>
<p class="msolistparagraph"><font color="#1f497d" face="Symbol" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Symbol; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">·</span></font><font color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman" size="1"><span style="font-size: 7pt; font-family: "Times New Roman"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">
</span></font>Sections G3.1.2.8 and G3.1.2.9 agreeably apply only to baseline
systems. They have no bearing on the topic at hand (what goes in the
proposed model), unless your baseline fan capacities/efficiency calcs
didn’t follow the instructions.</p>
<p class="msolistparagraph"><font color="#1f497d" face="Symbol" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Symbol; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">·</span></font><font color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman" size="1"><span style="font-size: 7pt; font-family: "Times New Roman"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">
</span></font><font color="#1f497d"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">The request to
document the independent fan systems’ energies separately is not new.
May as well do that after all’s said and done.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">That’s my initial take.
Thoughts, anyone?</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">~Nick</span></font></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><img id="Picture_x005f_x0020_1" src="cid:2.3947549367@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com" alt="cid:489575314@22072009-0ABB" width="119" height="37"></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font color="#2d4d5e" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(45, 77, 94); font-weight: bold;"> </span></font></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font color="#2d4d5e" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(45, 77, 94); font-weight: bold;">NICK CATON, E.I.T.</span></font></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#cc9900" face="Arial" size="1"><span style="font-size: 7.5pt; color: rgb(204, 153, 0);">PROJECT ENGINEER</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#2d4d5e" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">Smith & Boucher Engineers</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#2d4d5e" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">25501 west valley parkway</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#2d4d5e" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">olathe</span></font><font color="#2d4d5e" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);"> ks 66061</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#2d4d5e" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">direct 913 344.0036</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#2d4d5e" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">fax 913 345.0617</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.smithboucher.com">www.smithboucher.com</a></span></font><u><font color="blue" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: blue;"> </span></font></u></p>
</div>
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<div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: windowtext; font-weight: bold;">From:</span></font></b><font color="black" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: windowtext;">
equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">On Behalf Of </span></b>Patrick J. O'Leary, Jr.<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Friday, May 20, 2011 8:35 AM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Equest-users] Supply
Fan Power</span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">it reads to me that your initial interpretation is what the reviewer is
asking for. on the other hand the question is what is constituting an
"independent" exhaust fan here. if the exhaust fan is part of
the balance of the supply/return/exhaust system it probably should be modeled
as such as it is not really different than having a return fan installed in the
ductwork somewhere and not in a unit itself. per hte 90.1 user's manual
(page g-28 in 2004), "System fan electrical power for supply, return,
exhaust and relief fans is calculated based on the following formula. The
power from this formula includes supply, return, relief, and exhaust fans
..." if the exhaust fan is not part of the designed system
supply/return/exhaust then i would think your initial interpretation of what
the reviewer is asking is correct. whichever situation applies make sure
the response documents the purpose of the exhaust fans and how 90.1 applies
(including section/user manual references).<br>
<br>
On 5/20/11 6:15 AM, M. Shields wrote: </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">The exact comment is this:</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">“The fan power spreadsheet for the
Baseline and Proposed models indicate that the fan power of the exhaust fans
have not been modeled identically in each model. All independent fan systems of
the HVAC systems in the actual design must be modeled identically between the
Proposed and Baseline models at actual equipment capacities (fan volume and fan
power) as required by Table G3.1.10 in the Proposed building column, since the
fan design air flow rates and fan power per Sections G3.1.2.8 and G3.1.2.9,
respectively, only applies to system types 1 through 8 in Table G3.1.1A. If
appealing this credit, revise the Proposed and Baseline models so all
independent fan systems of the HVAC systems are modeled identically between the
Proposed and Baseline models. In addition, separate the energy consumption and
peak demand energy for independent fans in Table 1.8.1 and Table 1.8.2 of the
template and provide revised SV-A reports for each model reflecting the
changes.”</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I initially interpreted this to be that
for exhaust systems the bhp/kw needs to be identical in both buildings and
based on the specified equipment from the mechanical designer, however, my
supply fan energy was Ok. After reading the comment and Appendix G I am
not unsure if I also need to specify the fan power to be the same for both models,
ie use table G3.1.2.9 to calculate fan power for both instead of just the
baseline.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></font></p>
<div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: windowtext; font-weight: bold;">From:</span></font></b><font color="black" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: windowtext;"> <a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">On Behalf Of </span></b>Patrick J. O'Leary,
Jr.<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Friday, May 20, 2011 8:57 AM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> <a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Equest-users] Supply
Fan Power</span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">from your wording of "independent" it sounds like you may
have an application where you have a unit in the proposed building that is
required but not provided in the design? or something similar. is
this the case? if a unit is required in the proposed per the requirement
all spaces be heated/cooled (per the definitions) they are required to be the
same as the units in the baseline building. if this is not the case if
you post the exact comment it may shed some light on the subject.
otherwise i would argue the comment is in error - if all of your zones are
served by units in the proposed and you have matching units in the baseline
(regardless of system types) then your approach would be correct. <br>
<br>
On 5/20/11 5:31 AM, M. Shields wrote: </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Good Morning All,</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">I recently received comments back from LEED and one of them was about
my fan power. In the submission I calculated all of my fan power using
G3.1.2.9 for the baseline building, and I used the actual fan power in the
proposed building. The reviewer has commented that all independent fan
systems have to be modeled identically in both the baseline and the proposed
building. The supply fans use very high efficiency motors, and as such
are substantially more efficient than the calculation that G3.1.2.9
provides. Is there no way to take credit for using high efficiency supply
fans?</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Thanks,</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Times New Roman";">____________________________<br>
Michael Shields</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Times New Roman";">Email: <a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:mshields@fstrategies.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:mshields@fstrategies.com">mshields@fstrategies.com</a></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"> </span></font></p>
<pre><font color="black" face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> </span></font></pre><pre><font color="black" face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> </span></font></pre><pre><font color="black" face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">_______________________________________________</span></font></pre><pre><font color="black" face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Equest-users mailing list</span></font></pre><pre><font color="black" face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;"><span><a target="_blank" href="http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org">http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org</a></span></span></font></pre><pre><font color="black" face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">To unsubscribe from this mailing list send a blank message to <a rel="nofollow"
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