<html><head><style type="text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></head><body><div style="font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:10pt">Michael:<br><br>Would not the toilet exhaust be an independent system? It does not return air to the HVAC system and can operate with the HVAC system off.<br><br>I am modeling a residential high rise and am modeling the kitchen exhaust hoods as an independent system. In my case the toilet exhaust fans have been eliminated and the toilet/apartment exhaust air is returned to an ERV. Each apartment is being supplied with ventilation air from a DOAS. In my case, I will model the toilet exhaust as part of the HVAC system.<br><div><br></div><div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 10pt;">Paul Diglio<br><div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><hr size="1"><b><span
style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> M. Shields <mshields@fstrategies.com><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Fri, May 20, 2011 10:25:43 AM<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Equest-users] Supply Fan Power<br></font><br>
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--></style><div class="WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Thanks for all of the comments. I think I may have figured out how the reviewer got confused.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">As part of my documentation I provided a table which showed the supply and exhaust cfm, bhp, and kw as calculated from G3.2.1.9 for the baseline building. I then showed the same for the proposed building using the actual equipment specified. The building has stacks of apartment units, each stack has an exhaust riser which has a continuously running fan on the roof. I am interpreting everything correctly now, the baseline building should only list the supply cfm, bhp, and kw as calculated from G3.2.1.9 which includes the fan power from this exhaust riser. The proposed building would then use
the actual supply fan and exhaust fans specified.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Does this seem like the correct path? Alternatively the exhaust riser could be modeled separately in both buildings using the proposed equipment as a process load.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p><div><div style="border-width: 1pt medium medium; border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: windowtext;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: windowtext;"> equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b>On Behalf Of
</b>Bishop, Bill<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, May 20, 2011 9:51 AM<br><b>To:</b> Nick Caton; Patrick J. O'Leary, Jr.; equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Supply Fan Power</span></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Michael,</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I’m confused by your LEED reviewer’s comments. As Patrick mentioned, it would help to know what the reviewer means by “independent fan systems”. I can think of only two situations where you would need to model identical fan power in the baseline and proposed models. One is if you have no heating and/or cooling system in the proposed design, in which case the proposed system “shall be identical to the system modeled in the baseline building design” per Table G3.1(10.). Since
you mention that you used the actual fan power in the proposed building, I’m assuming that heating and cooling systems have been specified for your proposed design.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">The other situation is for process loads. If you have fan power associated with non-HVAC systems, it should be treated as a process load and modeled identically between the baseline and proposed designs. An example of this that has been discussed on this forum previously is parking garage exhaust.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I rarely model anything but supply fans in the baseline model unless there are process loads. I see no point in modeling return, exhaust or relief fans. The fan power calculated in G3.1.2.9 is for the sum of supply, return, exhaust and relief fans. The baseline systems have to move
the same amount of air regardless of the combination of fan types, and the fan power is based on, and entered as, kW/cfm, so you will end up with the same fan energy in the baseline model regardless of how many fans you model for each baseline system.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I don’t know what the reviewer is trying to say with their comment about system types 1 through 8 and Table G3.1.1A.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Regards,</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Bill</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><img id="_x0000_i1026"
src="cid:1.3946726084@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com" alt="Signature in jpg form" width="496" height="123"></span></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p><div><div style="border-width: 1pt medium medium; border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: windowtext;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: windowtext;"> equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Nick Caton<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, May 20, 2011 9:50 AM<br><b>To:</b> Patrick J. O'Leary, Jr.; equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Supply Fan Power</span></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><p
class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Color me concerned… This reviewer may have an argument but I can’t reason it. I think he/she may be leading us off the path regarding what the baseline fan power calculations apply to…</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">You’ve got exhaust fans in a proposed model matching the construction documents. Sounds okay so far… Going through this line by line:</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p><p class="MsoListParagraph" style=""><span style="font-family: Symbol; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><span style="">·<span style="font: 7pt "Times New Roman";"> </span></span></span><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I would start with directing the reviewer to the
glossary. The entry for “<i>HVAC system</i>” reads: the equipment, distribution systems, and terminals that provide, either collectively or individually, the processes of heating, ventilation, or air conditioning to a building or portion of a building.”</span></p><p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left: 1in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><span style="">o<span style="font: 7pt "Times New Roman";"> </span></span></span><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Clearly, an exhaust fan providing ventilation to a building independent of other systems is an HVAC system. The reviewer’s phrasing of “..independent fan systems of the HVAC systems” is a misinterpretation.</span></p><p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left: 1in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><span style="">o<span style="font: 7pt "Times New
Roman";"> </span></span></span><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Building on the understanding that an independent exhaust system is a complete HVAC system, Table G3.1.10.a is as far as you need to go for support of following the construction documents.</span></p><p class="MsoListParagraph" style=""><span style="font-family: Symbol; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><span style="">·<span style="font: 7pt "Times New Roman";"> </span></span></span><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I’d again reject the reviewers’ choice of words: Exhaust fans are not “independent fans of the HVAC systems.”</span></p><p class="MsoListParagraph" style=""><span style="font-family: Symbol; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><span style="">·<span style="font: 7pt "Times New Roman";"> </span></span></span><span style="color: rgb(31, 73,
125);">Sections G3.1.2.8 and G3.1.2.9 agreeably apply only to baseline systems. They have no bearing on the topic at hand (what goes in the proposed model), unless your baseline fan capacities/efficiency calcs didn’t follow the instructions.</span></p><p class="MsoListParagraph" style=""><span style="font-family: Symbol; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><span style="">·<span style="font: 7pt "Times New Roman";"> </span></span></span><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">The request to document the independent fan systems’ energies separately is not new. May as well do that after all’s said and done.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">That’s my initial take. Thoughts, anyone?</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p><p
class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">~Nick</span></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><img id="Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:2.3946726084@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com" alt="cid:489575314@22072009-0ABB" width="119" height="37"></span><b><span style="font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);"></span></b></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);"> </span></b></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">NICK CATON, E.I.T.</span></b><b><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);"></span></b></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 7.5pt; color: rgb(204, 153, 0);">PROJECT ENGINEER</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">Smith & Boucher Engineers</span><span
style="font-size: 7.5pt; font-family: "serif"; color: rgb(204, 153, 0);"></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">25501 west valley parkway</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">olathe ks 66061</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">direct 913 344.0036</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">fax 913 345.0617</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><a rel="nofollow" title="blocked::www.smithboucher.com"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">www.smithboucher.com</span></a></span><u><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: blue;"> </span></u><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"></span></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p><div><div style="border-width: 1pt medium medium; border-style: solid
none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: windowtext;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: windowtext;"> equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Patrick J. O'Leary, Jr.<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, May 20, 2011 8:35 AM<br><b>To:</b> equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Supply Fan Power</span></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><p class="MsoNormal">it reads to me that your initial interpretation is what the reviewer is asking for. on the other hand the question is what is constituting an "independent" exhaust fan here. if the exhaust fan is part of the balance of the supply/return/exhaust system it probably
should be modeled as such as it is not really different than having a return fan installed in the ductwork somewhere and not in a unit itself. per hte 90.1 user's manual (page g-28 in 2004), "System fan electrical power for supply, return, exhaust and relief fans is calculated based on the following formula. The power from this formula includes supply, return, relief, and exhaust fans ..." if the exhaust fan is not part of the designed system supply/return/exhaust then i would think your initial interpretation of what the reviewer is asking is correct. whichever situation applies make sure the response documents the purpose of the exhaust fans and how 90.1 applies (including section/user manual references).<br><br>On 5/20/11 6:15 AM, M. Shields wrote: </p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">The exact comment is this:</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73,
125);"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">“The fan power spreadsheet for the Baseline and Proposed models indicate that the fan power of the exhaust fans have not been modeled identically in each model. All independent fan systems of the HVAC systems in the actual design must be modeled identically between the Proposed and Baseline models at actual equipment capacities (fan volume and fan power) as required by Table G3.1.10 in the Proposed building column, since the fan design air flow rates and fan power per Sections G3.1.2.8 and G3.1.2.9, respectively, only applies to system types 1 through 8 in Table G3.1.1A. If appealing this credit, revise the Proposed and Baseline models so all independent fan systems of the HVAC systems are modeled identically between the Proposed and Baseline models. In addition, separate the energy consumption and peak demand energy for independent fans in Table 1.8.1 and Table 1.8.2
of the template and provide revised SV-A reports for each model reflecting the changes.”</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I initially interpreted this to be that for exhaust systems the bhp/kw needs to be identical in both buildings and based on the specified equipment from the mechanical designer, however, my supply fan energy was Ok. After reading the comment and Appendix G I am not unsure if I also need to specify the fan power to be the same for both models, ie use table G3.1.2.9 to calculate fan power for both instead of just the baseline.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p><div><div style="border-width: 1pt medium medium; border-style: solid none none; border-color: windowtext -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: windowtext;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: windowtext;"> <a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Patrick J. O'Leary, Jr.<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, May 20, 2011 8:57 AM<br><b>To:</b> <a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Supply Fan Power</span></p></div></div><p
class="MsoNormal"> </p><p class="MsoNormal">from your wording of "independent" it sounds like you may have an application where you have a unit in the proposed building that is required but not provided in the design? or something similar. is this the case? if a unit is required in the proposed per the requirement all spaces be heated/cooled (per the definitions) they are required to be the same as the units in the baseline building. if this is not the case if you post the exact comment it may shed some light on the subject. otherwise i would argue the comment is in error - if all of your zones are served by units in the proposed and you have matching units in the baseline (regardless of system types) then your approach would be correct. <br><br>On 5/20/11 5:31 AM, M. Shields wrote: </p><p class="MsoNormal">Good Morning All,</p><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><p class="MsoNormal">I recently received comments back
from LEED and one of them was about my fan power. In the submission I calculated all of my fan power using G3.1.2.9 for the baseline building, and I used the actual fan power in the proposed building. The reviewer has commented that all independent fan systems have to be modeled identically in both the baseline and the proposed building. The supply fans use very high efficiency motors, and as such are substantially more efficient than the calculation that G3.1.2.9 provides. Is there no way to take credit for using high efficiency supply fans?</p><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><p class="MsoNormal">Thanks,</p><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "serif";">____________________________<br>Michael Shields</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "serif";">Email: <a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:mshields@fstrategies.com"
target="_blank" href="mailto:mshields@fstrategies.com">mshields@fstrategies.com</a></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><pre> </pre><pre> </pre><pre>_______________________________________________</pre><pre>Equest-users mailing list</pre><pre><span><a target="_blank" href="http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org">http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org</a></span></pre><pre>To unsubscribe from this mailing list send a blank message to <a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG" target="_blank" href="mailto:EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG">EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG</a></pre><pre> </pre><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "serif";"> </span></p><pre> </pre><pre> </pre><pre>_______________________________________________</pre><pre>Equest-users mailing
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