<div dir="ltr"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> </span><br>
<p style="color: rgb(0, 102, 0);" class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Hi Vipul,</span></b></p><p style="color: rgb(0, 102, 0);" class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 11pt;"> </span></b></p><b><span style="color: rgb(0, 102, 0);"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">You can download actual daily weather data files from here</span></span><br style="color: rgb(0, 102, 0);">
<br style="color: rgb(0, 102, 0);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 102, 0);"><a href="http://cdo.ncdc.noaa.gov/pls/plclimprod/cdomain.abbrev2id">http://cdo.ncdc.noaa.gov/pls/plclimprod/cdomain.abbrev2id</a><br><br><br style="color: rgb(0, 102, 0);">
</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 102, 0);"></b><b style="color: rgb(0, 102, 0);">Thanks,<br><br>Morteza</b><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">2011/3/30 <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:equest-users-request@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-request@lists.onebuilding.org</a>></span><br>
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<br>Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. question about inefficiency of duct (xiaoyang shi)<br>
2. Re: question about inefficiency of duct (McArdle, Mike)<br>
3. Re: question about inefficiency of duct (Paul Diglio)<br>
4. Re: question about inefficiency of duct (Varkie C Thomas)<br>
5. Re: question about inefficiency of duct (Nick Caton)<br>
6. Re: question about inefficiency of duct (Nick Caton)<br>
7. Re: question about inefficiency of duct (Paul Diglio)<br>
8. How to understand WSHP Rated Performance Correction Factors?<br>
(Suka)<br>
9. Re: Making sub meters (Jenny Zhang)<br>
10. Re: question about inefficiency of duct (Andy Phelps)<br>
11. FCU & occupancy Controls (Claudia De Paula)<br>
12. Re: Thermal Blocks/HVAC Systems for LEED Credit (Bishop, Bill)<br>
13. Re: question about inefficiency of duct (John Bixler)<br>
14. Modeling DOAS with a dummy zone (Brian Smith)<br>
15. Re: Modeling DOAS with a dummy zone (Jeremy Poling)<br>
16. Re: Modeling DOAS with a dummy zone (Haddad, Kamel)<br>
17. Re: Modeling DOAS with a dummy zone (Charles Land)<br>
18. Actual daily weather data for year 2005 to 2010<br>
(<a href="mailto:vipulbabriya@aol.com">vipulbabriya@aol.com</a>)<br>
19. Re: Actual daily weather data for year 2005 to 2010 (Ashu Gupta)<br>
<br><br>---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>From: xiaoyang shi <<a href="mailto:xs2144@gmail.com">xs2144@gmail.com</a>><br>To: <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 17:36:38 -0400<br>Subject: [Equest-users] question about inefficiency of duct<br>Hi folks,<br><br>In the winter time, some heat loss in HVAC is from duct.<br><br>What is the percentage of heat loss through the duct to the total building heat load, due to the inefficiencies of duct delivery system?<br>
<br>
Thank you guys.<br><br><input type="hidden"><input type="hidden"><div></div>
<br><br>---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>From: "McArdle, Mike" <<a href="mailto:Mike.McAardle@state.vt.us">Mike.McAardle@state.vt.us</a>><br>To: 'xiaoyang shi' <<a href="mailto:xs2144@gmail.com">xs2144@gmail.com</a>>, "<a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>><br>
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 17:39:40 -0400<br>Subject: Re: [Equest-users] question about inefficiency of duct<br><div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US"><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">Dear xiaoyang shi</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">It Depends on the temperature differentials between air in duct and space and insulation thickness </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">But more importantly , if the air in duct is the same air as the air being supplied to the space there is no net effect </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Thank you, Sincerely,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Michael J. McArdle , P.E.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Buildings Engineer II, Project Manager </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">State of Vermont, </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Buildings and General Services (BGS)</span></p><p class="MsoNormal">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">2 Governor Aiken Avenue</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Montpelier, Vt. 05633</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Office: <a href="tel:802-828-5650" value="+18028285650" target="_blank">802-828-5650</a>; cell: <a href="tel:802-272-4828" value="+18022724828" target="_blank">802-272-4828</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> <a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>xiaoyang shi<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, March 29, 2011 5:37 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> [Equest-users] question about inefficiency of duct</span></p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><p class="MsoNormal">Hi folks,<br><br>In the winter time, some heat loss in HVAC is from duct.<br><br>What is the percentage of heat loss through the duct to the total building heat load, due to the inefficiencies of duct delivery system?<br>
<br>Thank you guys.<br><br><br></p></div></div><br><br>---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>From: Paul Diglio <<a href="mailto:paul.diglio@sbcglobal.net">paul.diglio@sbcglobal.net</a>><br>To: "McArdle, Mike" <<a href="mailto:Mike.McAardle@state.vt.us">Mike.McAardle@state.vt.us</a>>, xiaoyang shi <<a href="mailto:xs2144@gmail.com">xs2144@gmail.com</a>>, "<a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>><br>
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 14:59:04 -0700 (PDT)<br>Subject: Re: [Equest-users] question about inefficiency of duct<br><div><div style="font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:10pt"><div>Michael:<br><br>"if the air in duct is the same air as the air being supplied to the space, there is no net effect"? What do you mean by net effect?<br>
<br>The duct heat loss/gain depends on the difference of the temperature of the air in the duct and the temperature of the air surrounding the outside of the duct. It is highly unlikely that these temperature will be the same.<br>
<br>Paul Diglio<br></div><div style="font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:10pt"><br><div style="font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:12pt"><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><hr size="1">
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">From:</span></b> "McArdle, Mike" <<a href="mailto:Mike.McAardle@state.vt.us" target="_blank">Mike.McAardle@state.vt.us</a>><br><b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> xiaoyang shi
<<a href="mailto:xs2144@gmail.com" target="_blank">xs2144@gmail.com</a>>; "<a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Tue, March 29, 2011 5:39:40 PM<br><b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Equest-users] question about inefficiency of duct<br></font><br>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">Dear xiaoyang shi</span><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)">It Depends on the temperature differentials between air in duct and space and insulation thickness </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)">But more importantly , if the air in duct is the same air as the air being supplied to the space there is
no net effect </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)">Thank you, Sincerely,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)">Michael J. McArdle , P.E.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)">Buildings Engineer II, Project Manager </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)">State of Vermont, </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)">Buildings and General Services (BGS)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)">2 Governor Aiken Avenue</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)">Montpelier, Vt. 05633</span></p><p class="MsoNormal">
<span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)">Office: <a href="tel:802-828-5650" value="+18028285650" target="_blank">802-828-5650</a>; cell: <a href="tel:802-272-4828" value="+18022724828" target="_blank">802-272-4828</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)">
</span></p><div style="border-width:1pt medium medium;border-style:solid none none;border-color:rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color;padding:3pt 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt"> <a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>xiaoyang shi<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, March 29, 2011 5:37 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> [Equest-users] question about inefficiency of duct</span></p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><p class="MsoNormal">Hi folks,<br><br>In the winter time, some heat loss in HVAC is from duct.<br><br>What is the percentage of heat loss through the duct to the total building heat load, due to the inefficiencies of duct delivery system?<br>
<br>Thank you
guys.<br><br><br></p></div></div></div>
</div></div><br><br>---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>From: Varkie C Thomas <<a href="mailto:thomasv@iit.edu">thomasv@iit.edu</a>><br>To: Paul Diglio <<a href="mailto:paul.diglio@sbcglobal.net">paul.diglio@sbcglobal.net</a>><br>
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 18:37:41 -0500<br>Subject: Re: [Equest-users] question about inefficiency of duct<br>
<div><p>See page 14 to 17 "Thermal Analysis"</p>
<p><a href="http://bepan.info/class-notes/e6_-_loads-ducts-pipes" target="_blank">http://bepan.info/class-notes/e6_-_loads-ducts-pipes</a> </p>
<p><a href="http://bepan.info/yahoo_site_admin/assets/docs/AES-Ductwork-System-Design.2134047.pdf" type="4" target="_blank">AES-Ductwork-System-Design</a></p>
<p>When the cooling DT (Room-Suppy Temp) is 20 degs, every degree temp rise from the cooling coil affects the supply air by 5%. For a draw-thru system with a supply static of 8" to 9" the heat gain across the fan, the temp rise can be significant. The rule of thumb in the old days, when no one could be bothered doing these calculations manually, the temp-rise was assumed to be = 0.5 x SP. </p>
<p>The velocity upstream of the terminal box from the AHU through the unconditioned shafts of high-rise bldgs is typically about 4,000 fpm which results in low heat gain due to the high velocity. The terminal box and the low velocity ductwork is above conditioned space (typically RA plenum). If the ductwork is insulated on both sides of the TB, the rule of thumb for a temp rise through the ducts is about 1 - 2 degs which requires about a 10% increase in supply air.</p>
<p>Before anyone replies to this message saying that it has wandered off the point from the issue being discussed, I will admit the reply is an excuse to for mentioning the website. I am thinking of closing it down if there is no interest from others in developing building energy analysis course material from a full design perspective and not just using computer program. The emphasis would be on teaching Energy Efficient Building Design with project case studies. It does not quite fit in with BEMBook The objectives are in the Introduction <a href="http://bepan.info/introduction" target="_blank">http://bepan.info/introduction</a></p>
<p>Varkie</p></div>
<br><div><div style="font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:10pt"><div>Michael:<br><br>"if the air in duct is the same air as the air being supplied to the space, there is no net effect"? What do you mean by net effect?<br>
<br>The duct heat loss/gain depends on the difference of the temperature of the air in the duct and the temperature of the air surrounding the outside of the duct. It is highly unlikely that these temperature will be the same.<br>
<br>Paul Diglio<br></div><div style="font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:10pt"><br><div style="font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:12pt"><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><hr size="1">
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">From:</span></b> "McArdle, Mike" <<a href="mailto:Mike.McAardle@state.vt.us" target="_blank">Mike.McAardle@state.vt.us</a>><br><b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> xiaoyang shi
<<a href="mailto:xs2144@gmail.com" target="_blank">xs2144@gmail.com</a>>; "<a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Tue, March 29, 2011 5:39:40 PM<br><b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Equest-users] question about inefficiency of duct<br></font><br>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">Dear xiaoyang shi</span><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)">It Depends on the temperature differentials between air in duct and space and insulation thickness </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)">But more importantly , if the air in duct is the same air as the air being supplied to the space there is
no net effect </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)">Thank you, Sincerely,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)">Michael J. McArdle , P.E.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)">Buildings Engineer II, Project Manager </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)">State of Vermont, </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)">Buildings and General Services (BGS)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)">2 Governor Aiken Avenue</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)">Montpelier, Vt. 05633</span></p><p class="MsoNormal">
<span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)">Office: <a href="tel:802-828-5650" value="+18028285650" target="_blank">802-828-5650</a>; cell: <a href="tel:802-272-4828" value="+18022724828" target="_blank">802-272-4828</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)">
</span></p><div style="border-width:1pt medium medium;border-style:solid none none;border-color:rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color;padding:3pt 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt"> <a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>xiaoyang shi<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, March 29, 2011 5:37 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> [Equest-users] question about inefficiency of duct</span></p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><p class="MsoNormal">Hi folks,<br><br>In the winter time, some heat loss in HVAC is from duct.<br><br>What is the percentage of heat loss through the duct to the total building heat load, due to the inefficiencies of duct delivery system?<br>
<br>Thank you
guys.<br><br><br></p></div></div></div>
</div></div>
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<br><br>---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>From: "Nick Caton" <<a href="mailto:ncaton@smithboucher.com">ncaton@smithboucher.com</a>><br>To: "Paul Diglio" <<a href="mailto:paul.diglio@sbcglobal.net">paul.diglio@sbcglobal.net</a>>, "McArdle, Mike" <<a href="mailto:Mike.McAardle@state.vt.us">Mike.McAardle@state.vt.us</a>>, "xiaoyang shi" <<a href="mailto:xs2144@gmail.com">xs2144@gmail.com</a>>, <<a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>><br>
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 19:03:32 -0500<br>Subject: Re: [Equest-users] question about inefficiency of duct<br>
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">I think Mike’s general point is fair and isn’t to be
taken in absolutes. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">When a ducted return air stream is passing through a conditioned
space or plenums/chases in between other conditioned spaces, it’s
probably a safe bet to claim any duct gains/losses are *negligible* (not nonexistent),
particularly if said return ducts are insulated, due to the relatively small
delta-T.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">On the other hand, winter losses and summertime gains at extreme
temperatures may be considerable if any ductwork is routed exterior to the building,
even if insulated. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Xiaoyang, if you wish to calculate it as a percentage at design
conditions: ( U x A x deltaT )<sub>DUCT</sub> / (total building
heating or cooling load) x 100</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">If you wanted to model such exterior duct heat losses/gains in
eQuest… I haven’t considered that before – but depending on
your system setup, it might be as simple as a small exterior wall surface
with appropriate U-value and area equal to the duct surface area… in the event
the solar loads incident on the duct might be significant, make a point to correctly
locate the surface in 3D (over the roof, along a wall, etc.) to avoid any incorrect
self-shading from other surfaces.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">If anyone has delved into this and knows a better/simpler way
please do share =).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">~Nick</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"><img src="" alt="cid:489575314@22072009-0ABB" height="37" width="119"></span><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#2D4D5E"></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#2D4D5E"> </span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#2D4D5E">NICK CATON, E.I.T.</span></b><b><span style="color:#2D4D5E"></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;color:#CC9900">PROJECT ENGINEER</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E">Smith & Boucher Engineers</span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;color:#CC9900"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E">25501 west valley parkway</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E">olathe ks 66061</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E">direct <a href="tel:913%20344.0036" value="+19133440036" target="_blank">913 344.0036</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E">fax <a href="tel:913%20345.0617" value="+19133450617" target="_blank">913 345.0617</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"><a href="http://www.smithboucher.com" title="blocked::www.smithboucher.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">www.smithboucher.com</span></a></span><u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:blue"> </span></u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt">
<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Paul
Diglio<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, March 29, 2011 4:59 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> McArdle, Mike; xiaoyang shi; <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] question about inefficiency of duct</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">Michael:<br>
<br>
"if the air in duct is the same air as the air being supplied to the
space, there is no net effect"? What do you mean by net effect?<br>
<br>
The duct heat loss/gain depends on the difference of the temperature of the air
in the duct and the temperature of the air surrounding the outside of the
duct. It is highly unlikely that these temperature will be the same.<br>
<br>
Paul Diglio</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> </span></p>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:center" align="center"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">
<hr align="center" size="1" width="100%">
</span></div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> "McArdle, Mike"
<<a href="mailto:Mike.McAardle@state.vt.us" target="_blank">Mike.McAardle@state.vt.us</a>><br>
<b>To:</b> xiaoyang shi <<a href="mailto:xs2144@gmail.com" target="_blank">xs2144@gmail.com</a>>; "<a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>"
<<a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tue, March 29, 2011 5:39:40 PM<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] question about inefficiency of duct</span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">Dear
xiaoyang shi</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">It Depends on the temperature differentials between air in duct
and space and insulation thickness </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">But more importantly , if the air in duct is the same air
as the air being supplied to the space there is no net effect </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Thank you, Sincerely,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Michael J. McArdle , P.E.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Buildings Engineer II, Project Manager </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">State of Vermont, </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Buildings and General Services (BGS)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">2 Governor Aiken Avenue</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Montpelier, Vt. 05633</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Office: <a href="tel:802-828-5650" value="+18028285650" target="_blank">802-828-5650</a>; cell: <a href="tel:802-272-4828" value="+18022724828" target="_blank">802-272-4828</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;border-color:-moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt">
<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>xiaoyang
shi<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, March 29, 2011 5:37 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Equest-users] question about inefficiency of duct</span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Hi folks,<br>
<br>
In the winter time, some heat loss in HVAC is from duct.<br>
<br>
What is the percentage of heat loss through the duct to the total building heat
load, due to the inefficiencies of duct delivery system?<br>
<br>
Thank you guys.<br>
<br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br><br>---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>From: "Nick Caton" <<a href="mailto:ncaton@smithboucher.com">ncaton@smithboucher.com</a>><br>To: "Varkie C Thomas" <<a href="mailto:thomasv@iit.edu">thomasv@iit.edu</a>>, "Paul Diglio" <<a href="mailto:paul.diglio@sbcglobal.net">paul.diglio@sbcglobal.net</a>><br>
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 19:18:26 -0500<br>Subject: Re: [Equest-users] question about inefficiency of duct<br>
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Varkie,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">I’ve found your website fascinating, personally. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">I’m not currently an educator, so perhaps I’m not
the intended audience, but as an MEP designer actively practicing energy
modeling in industry (outside of academia) I’ve stumbled into and found the
BEPAN site to be very handy multiple times. Anyone who hasn’t
perused the site might want to dig around a bit… there’s quite a
few tools/spreadsheet examples provided which I’ve found
interesting-to-useful, though finding any one thing can be tricky as it’s
quite a lot of material!</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">I hope the site doesn’t go down, or else if it should have
to you’ll give us a fair warning to scramble and make copies of useful
references/tools =). It seems to exist solely as a good-faith
contribution to helping others learn from your past experiences, and for that I
hope you know I for one very much appreciate your efforts!</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Thanks,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">~Nick</span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"><img src="" alt="cid:489575314@22072009-0ABB" height="37" width="119"></span><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#2D4D5E"></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#2D4D5E"> </span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#2D4D5E">NICK CATON, E.I.T.</span></b><b><span style="color:#2D4D5E"></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;color:#CC9900">PROJECT ENGINEER</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E">Smith & Boucher Engineers</span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;color:#CC9900"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E">25501 west valley parkway</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E">olathe ks 66061</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E">direct <a href="tel:913%20344.0036" value="+19133440036" target="_blank">913 344.0036</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E">fax <a href="tel:913%20345.0617" value="+19133450617" target="_blank">913 345.0617</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"><a href="http://www.smithboucher.com" title="blocked::www.smithboucher.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">www.smithboucher.com</span></a></span><u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:blue"> </span></u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt">
<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Varkie
C Thomas<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, March 29, 2011 6:38 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Paul Diglio<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>; xiaoyang shi<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] question about inefficiency of duct</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p>See page 14 to 17 "Thermal Analysis"</p>
<p><a href="http://bepan.info/class-notes/e6_-_loads-ducts-pipes" target="_blank">http://bepan.info/class-notes/e6_-_loads-ducts-pipes</a> </p>
<p><a href="http://bepan.info/yahoo_site_admin/assets/docs/AES-Ductwork-System-Design.2134047.pdf" target="_blank">AES-Ductwork-System-Design</a></p>
<p>When the cooling DT (Room-Suppy Temp) is 20 degs, every degree temp rise
from the cooling coil affects the supply air by 5%. For a draw-thru
system with a supply static of 8" to 9" the heat gain across the fan,
the temp rise can be significant. The rule of thumb in the old days,
when no one could be bothered doing these calculations manually,
the temp-rise was assumed to be = 0.5 x SP. </p>
<p>The velocity upstream of the terminal box from the AHU through the
unconditioned shafts of high-rise bldgs is typically about 4,000 fpm which
results in low heat gain due to the high velocity. The terminal box and
the low velocity ductwork is above conditioned space (typically RA
plenum). If the ductwork is insulated on both sides of the TB, the rule
of thumb for a temp rise through the ducts is about 1 - 2 degs
which requires about a 10% increase in supply air.</p>
<p>Before anyone replies to this message saying that it has wandered off
the point from the issue being discussed, I will admit the reply is
an excuse to for mentioning the website. I am thinking of closing it down
if there is no interest from others in developing building energy analysis
course material from a full design perspective and not just using computer
program. The emphasis would be on teaching Energy Efficient Building
Design with project case studies. It does not quite fit in
with BEMBook The objectives are in the Introduction <a href="http://bepan.info/introduction" target="_blank">http://bepan.info/introduction</a></p>
<p>Varkie</p>
</div>
</div>
<br><br>---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>From: Paul Diglio <<a href="mailto:paul.diglio@sbcglobal.net">paul.diglio@sbcglobal.net</a>><br>To: Nick Caton <<a href="mailto:ncaton@smithboucher.com">ncaton@smithboucher.com</a>>, "McArdle, Mike" <<a href="mailto:Mike.McAardle@state.vt.us">Mike.McAardle@state.vt.us</a>>, xiaoyang shi <<a href="mailto:xs2144@gmail.com">xs2144@gmail.com</a>>, <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 17:31:36 -0700 (PDT)<br>Subject: Re: [Equest-users] question about inefficiency of duct<br><div><div style="font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:10pt">Nick:<br><br>For a supply duct passing through a plenum return ceiling during the cooling season, the temperature difference between the supply air and return air can be as much as 25 degrees.<br>
<br>During the heating season, this difference could be as much as 30 degrees during morning warm up.<br><br>Paul Diglio<br><br><div style="font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:10pt"><br><div style="font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:12pt">
<font face="Tahoma" size="2"><hr size="1"><b><span style="font-weight:bold">From:</span></b> Nick Caton <<a href="mailto:ncaton@smithboucher.com" target="_blank">ncaton@smithboucher.com</a>><br><b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> Paul Diglio <<a href="mailto:paul.diglio@sbcglobal.net" target="_blank">paul.diglio@sbcglobal.net</a>>; "McArdle, Mike" <<a href="mailto:Mike.McAardle@state.vt.us" target="_blank">Mike.McAardle@state.vt.us</a>>; xiaoyang shi
<<a href="mailto:xs2144@gmail.com" target="_blank">xs2144@gmail.com</a>>; <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br><b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Tue, March 29, 2011 8:03:32 PM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> RE: [Equest-users] question about inefficiency of duct<br></font><br>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)">I think Mike’s general point is fair and isn’t to be
taken in absolutes. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)">When a ducted return air stream is passing through a conditioned
space or plenums/chases in between other conditioned spaces, it’s
probably a safe bet to claim any duct gains/losses are *negligible* (not nonexistent),
particularly if said return ducts are insulated, due to the relatively small
delta-T.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)">On the other hand, winter losses and summertime gains at extreme
temperatures may be considerable if any ductwork is routed exterior to the building,
even if insulated. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)">Xiaoyang, if you wish to calculate it as a percentage at design
conditions: ( U x A x deltaT )<sub>DUCT</sub> / (total building
heating or cooling load) x 100</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)">If you wanted to model such exterior duct heat losses/gains in
eQuest… I haven’t considered that before – but depending on
your system setup, it might be as simple as a small exterior wall surface
with appropriate U-value and area equal to the duct surface area… in the event
the solar loads incident on the duct might be significant, make a point to correctly
locate the surface in 3D (over the roof, along a wall, etc.) to avoid any incorrect
self-shading from other surfaces.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)">If anyone has delved into this and knows a better/simpler way
please do share =).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)">~Nick</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"> </span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"><img src="" alt="cid:489575314@22072009-0ABB" height="37" width="119"></span><b><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(45, 77, 94)"></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(45, 77, 94)"> </span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(45, 77, 94)">NICK CATON, E.I.T.</span></b><b><span style="color:rgb(45, 77, 94)"></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;color:rgb(204, 153, 0)">PROJECT ENGINEER</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(45, 77, 94)">Smith & Boucher Engineers</span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;color:rgb(204, 153, 0)"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(45, 77, 94)">25501 west valley parkway</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(45, 77, 94)">olathe ks 66061</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(45, 77, 94)">direct <a href="tel:913%20344.0036" value="+19133440036" target="_blank">913 344.0036</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(45, 77, 94)">fax <a href="tel:913%20345.0617" value="+19133450617" target="_blank">913 345.0617</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"><a rel="nofollow" title="blocked::www.smithboucher.com"><span style="font-size:10pt">www.smithboucher.com</span></a></span><u><span style="font-size:10pt;color:blue"> </span></u><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="border-width:1pt medium medium;border-style:solid none none;border-color:rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color;padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt">
<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Paul
Diglio<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, March 29, 2011 4:59 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> McArdle, Mike; xiaoyang shi; <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] question about inefficiency of duct</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">Michael:<br>
<br>
"if the air in duct is the same air as the air being supplied to the
space, there is no net effect"? What do you mean by net effect?<br>
<br>
The duct heat loss/gain depends on the difference of the temperature of the air
in the duct and the temperature of the air surrounding the outside of the
duct. It is highly unlikely that these temperature will be the same.<br>
<br>
Paul Diglio</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt"> </span></p>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:center" align="center"><span style="font-size:10pt">
<hr align="center" size="1" width="100%">
</span></div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><b><span style="font-size:10pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt"> "McArdle, Mike"
<<a href="mailto:Mike.McAardle@state.vt.us" target="_blank">Mike.McAardle@state.vt.us</a>><br>
<b>To:</b> xiaoyang shi <<a href="mailto:xs2144@gmail.com" target="_blank">xs2144@gmail.com</a>>; "<a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>"
<<a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tue, March 29, 2011 5:39:40 PM<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] question about inefficiency of duct</span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">Dear
xiaoyang shi</span><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)">It Depends on the temperature differentials between air in duct
and space and insulation thickness </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)">But more importantly , if the air in duct is the same air
as the air being supplied to the space there is no net effect </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)">Thank you, Sincerely,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)">Michael J. McArdle , P.E.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)">Buildings Engineer II, Project Manager </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)">State of Vermont, </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)">Buildings and General Services (BGS)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)">2 Governor Aiken Avenue</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)">Montpelier, Vt. 05633</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)">Office: <a href="tel:802-828-5650" value="+18028285650" target="_blank">802-828-5650</a>; cell: <a href="tel:802-272-4828" value="+18022724828" target="_blank">802-272-4828</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"> </span></p>
<div style="border-width:1pt medium medium;border-style:solid none none;border-color:windowtext -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color;padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt">
<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>xiaoyang
shi<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, March 29, 2011 5:37 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Equest-users] question about inefficiency of duct</span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt">Hi folks,<br>
<br>
In the winter time, some heat loss in HVAC is from duct.<br>
<br>
What is the percentage of heat loss through the duct to the total building heat
load, due to the inefficiencies of duct delivery system?<br>
<br>
Thank you guys.<br>
<br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div></div>
</div></div><br><br>---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>From: Suka <<a href="mailto:leedusersuka@163.com">leedusersuka@163.com</a>><br>To: equest-users <<a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>><br>
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 11:56:08 +0800 (CST)<br>Subject: [Equest-users] How to understand WSHP Rated Performance Correction Factors?<br><div>
<p style="margin-top:4.5pt" class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black;font-size:9pt" lang="EN-US">Hi dear all, </span></p>
<p style="margin-top:4.5pt" class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black;font-size:9pt" lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p style="margin-top:4.5pt" class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black;font-size:9pt" lang="EN-US">Please see below picture. Now I used "PVVT" system to simulate fresh air heat recovery, but the performance curves changed to " GSHP/WLHP_*", not "HP_*". I watched item help "<font style="background-color:#ffffff" color="#000000">Water-Loop and Geothermal Heat Pump Systems</font>", Table 51. Because my system is use boiler and fluid cooler, so I use the correction factors to multiplier cooling/heating Capacity and EIR. Not consider of fresh air heat recovery, the resulte decreased almost 5% from using "WLHP" system. But if not multiplier the correction factors, the resulte increased than using "WLHP" system.</span></p>
<p style="margin-top:4.5pt" class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black;font-size:9pt" lang="EN-US">How to understand the correction factors? Should I use it?</span></p>
<p style="margin-top:4.5pt" class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black;font-size:9pt" lang="EN-US">Anyone knows please help me.</span><span style="color:black;font-size:9pt" lang="EN-US"> Thank u!!!</span></p>
<p style="margin-top:4.5pt" class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black;font-size:9pt" lang="EN-US"></span> </p>
<p style="margin-top:4.5pt" class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:SimSun;font-size:10pt" lang="EN-US">Best Regards,</span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10pt" lang="EN-US">Fiona Xiang</span></b><span lang="EN-US"> <br></span><span style="font-size:10pt" lang="EN-US">Project Engineer</span><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p></div>
<br><br><span title="neteasefooter"><span></span></span><br><br><span title="neteasefooter"><span></span></span><br><br>---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>From: Jenny Zhang <<a href="mailto:jenny.zhang@arup.com">jenny.zhang@arup.com</a>><br>
To: "'M. Shields'" <<a href="mailto:mshields@fstrategies.com">mshields@fstrategies.com</a>>, "'<a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>'" <<a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>><br>
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 17:50:07 +0800<br>Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Making sub meters<br>
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">you should go back to other
parameter setting spaces to like the meters and related load.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">for example, you could find
airside-system> <img src="" height="229" width="581">>meters> <img src="" height="265" width="377">>select
the meter which you want to attach to.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">For chillers/boilers you could
find meter assignments in the basic specification.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">JENNY Z.</span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt">
<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>M.
Shields<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 2011</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt" lang="ZH-CN">年</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt">3</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt" lang="ZH-CN">月</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt">29</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt" lang="ZH-CN">日</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> 21:05<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Equest-users] Making sub meters</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi all,</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I think this should be fairly simple to set up, but I must
be missing something. I am wondering how I can set up sub meters for
different loads such as all the plug loads, or all the electric consumption for
one/multiple zones of my building. I created a sub meter but I cannot
figure out how to define what loads are then recorded on that submeter.
Could anyone give me a quick rundown of how to create and add loads to a sub
meter.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks for any help.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Book Antiqua","serif"">____________________________<br>
Michael Shields<br>
Facility Strategies Group, LLC</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Book Antiqua","serif"">1012
Market Street, Suite 307</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Book Antiqua","serif"">Fort
Mill, SC 29708</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Book Antiqua","serif"">Phone:
<a href="tel:803-493-4507" value="+18034934507" target="_blank">803-493-4507</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Book Antiqua","serif"">Fax:
<a href="tel:803-548-2511" value="+18035482511" target="_blank">803-548-2511</a><br>
Email: <a href="mailto:mshields@fstrategies.com" target="_blank">mshields@fstrategies.com</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<font face="monospace">____________________________________________________________<br>
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systems are scanned for acceptability of content and viruses</font></div>
<br><br>---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>From: "Andy Phelps" <<a href="mailto:aphelps@barnesanddodge.com">aphelps@barnesanddodge.com</a>><br>To: "Paul Diglio" <<a href="mailto:paul.diglio@sbcglobal.net">paul.diglio@sbcglobal.net</a>>, "Nick Caton" <<a href="mailto:ncaton@smithboucher.com">ncaton@smithboucher.com</a>>, "McArdle, Mike" <<a href="mailto:Mike.McAardle@state.vt.us">Mike.McAardle@state.vt.us</a>>, "xiaoyang shi" <<a href="mailto:xs2144@gmail.com">xs2144@gmail.com</a>>, <<a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>><br>
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 08:11:41 -0500<br>Subject: Re: [Equest-users] question about inefficiency of duct<br><div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US"><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">If you’re looking to see what change in temp you have based on a length of duct, insulation, etc, check out:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"><a href="http://www.mcgillairflow.com/textDocs/techTools/converted/thermalData1.php" target="_blank">http://www.mcgillairflow.com/textDocs/techTools/converted/thermalData1.php</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">This calculator is really meant for exterior applications as well as determining if condensation will occur (and you have to use their preset products for insulation thickness & k values), but it can be a quick reference for us looking to see what an avg heat loss might be in a duct system. (I’m sure there’s a reference to the ASHRAE handbooks, but I’m drawing a blank right now…)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">What I am unsure of in eQuest is how it uses Supply Duct UA and Duct Delta T. If heat is lost in the duct, is it gained in the ceiling space or plenum?? If that is the case, then the arguments below that the overall net effect is negligible is a good one. However, fan energy will increase since the delta T of the supply air to room air decreases.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D">Andy Phelps, PE, LEED AP | </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#4F6228">BARNES & DODGE, INC</span><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#4F6228">.</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D"> | <a href="mailto:aphelps@barnesanddodge.com" target="_blank">aphelps@barnesanddodge.com</a> | (o) <a href="tel:913-321-6444" value="+19133216444" target="_blank">913-321-6444</a> | (c) <a href="tel:913-710-7915" value="+19137107915" target="_blank">913-710-7915</a> | </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span style="font-size:8.0pt;color:gray">The information contained in this electronic message is confidential and is or may be protected by trade secret protections, and/or other applicable protections from disclosure. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or reproduction of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please immediately notify us by calling <a href="tel:913-321-6444" value="+19133216444" target="_blank">913-321-6444</a>, or by e-mail to <u><a href="mailto:front@barnesanddodge.com" title="mailto:front@barnesanddodge.com" target="_blank"><span style="color:gray">front@barnesanddodge.com</span></a></u>, and immediately delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Although this e-mail message and any attachments are believed to be free of any virus or other defect that might negatively affect any computer system into which it is received and opened, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Barnes & Dodge, Inc. for any loss or damage arising in any way in the event that such a virus or defect exists. Thank you.</span></i></b><b><i><span style="font-size:8.0pt;color:gray"></span></i></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> <a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Paul Diglio<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, March 29, 2011 7:32 PM<br><b>To:</b> Nick Caton; McArdle, Mike; xiaoyang shi; <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] question about inefficiency of duct</span></p>
</div></div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">Nick:<br><br>For a supply duct passing through a plenum return ceiling during the cooling season, the temperature difference between the supply air and return air can be as much as 25 degrees.<br>
<br>During the heating season, this difference could be as much as 30 degrees during morning warm up.<br><br>Paul Diglio</span></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> </span></p><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:center" align="center">
<span style="font-size:10.0pt"><hr align="center" size="1" width="100%"></span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> Nick Caton <<a href="mailto:ncaton@smithboucher.com" target="_blank">ncaton@smithboucher.com</a>><br>
<b>To:</b> Paul Diglio <<a href="mailto:paul.diglio@sbcglobal.net" target="_blank">paul.diglio@sbcglobal.net</a>>; "McArdle, Mike" <<a href="mailto:Mike.McAardle@state.vt.us" target="_blank">Mike.McAardle@state.vt.us</a>>; xiaoyang shi <<a href="mailto:xs2144@gmail.com" target="_blank">xs2144@gmail.com</a>>; <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tue, March 29, 2011 8:03:32 PM<br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [Equest-users] question about inefficiency of duct</span></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">I think Mike’s general point is fair and isn’t to be taken in absolutes. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">When a ducted return air stream is passing through a conditioned space or plenums/chases in between other conditioned spaces, it’s probably a safe bet to claim any duct gains/losses are *negligible* (not nonexistent), particularly if said return ducts are insulated, due to the relatively small delta-T.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">On the other hand, winter losses and summertime gains at extreme temperatures may be considerable if any ductwork is routed exterior to the building, even if insulated. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Xiaoyang, if you wish to calculate it as a percentage at design conditions: ( U x A x deltaT )<sub>DUCT</sub> / (total building heating or cooling load) x 100</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">If you wanted to model such exterior duct heat losses/gains in eQuest… I haven’t considered that before – but depending on your system setup, it might be as simple as a small exterior wall surface with appropriate U-value and area equal to the duct surface area… in the event the solar loads incident on the duct might be significant, make a point to correctly locate the surface in 3D (over the roof, along a wall, etc.) to avoid any incorrect self-shading from other surfaces.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">If anyone has delved into this and knows a better/simpler way please do share =).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">~Nick</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"><img src="" alt="cid:489575314@22072009-0ABB" border="0" height="37" width="119"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#2D4D5E"> </span></b></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#2D4D5E">NICK CATON, E.I.T.</span></b></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;color:#CC9900">PROJECT ENGINEER</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E">Smith & Boucher Engineers</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E">25501 west valley parkway</span></p><p class="MsoNormal">
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E">olathe ks 66061</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E">direct <a href="tel:913%20344.0036" value="+19133440036" target="_blank">913 344.0036</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E">fax <a href="tel:913%20345.0617" value="+19133450617" target="_blank">913 345.0617</a></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D"><a href="http://www.smithboucher.com" target="_blank">www.smithboucher.com</a></span><u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:blue"> </span></u></p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;border-color:-moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> <a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Paul Diglio<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, March 29, 2011 4:59 PM<br><b>To:</b> McArdle, Mike; xiaoyang shi; <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] question about inefficiency of duct</span></p>
</div></div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">Michael:<br><br>"if the air in duct is the same air as the air being supplied to the space, there is no net effect"? What do you mean by net effect?<br>
<br>The duct heat loss/gain depends on the difference of the temperature of the air in the duct and the temperature of the air surrounding the outside of the duct. It is highly unlikely that these temperature will be the same.<br>
<br>Paul Diglio</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> </span></p><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:center" align="center"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"><hr align="center" size="1" width="100%">
</span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> "McArdle, Mike" <<a href="mailto:Mike.McAardle@state.vt.us" target="_blank">Mike.McAardle@state.vt.us</a>><br>
<b>To:</b> xiaoyang shi <<a href="mailto:xs2144@gmail.com" target="_blank">xs2144@gmail.com</a>>; "<a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tue, March 29, 2011 5:39:40 PM<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] question about inefficiency of duct</span></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">Dear xiaoyang shi</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">It Depends on the temperature differentials between air in duct and space and insulation thickness </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">But more importantly , if the air in duct is the same air as the air being supplied to the space there is no net effect </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Thank you, Sincerely,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Michael J. McArdle , P.E.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Buildings Engineer II, Project Manager </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">State of Vermont, </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Buildings and General Services (BGS)</span></p><p class="MsoNormal">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">2 Governor Aiken Avenue</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Montpelier, Vt. 05633</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Office: <a href="tel:802-828-5650" value="+18028285650" target="_blank">802-828-5650</a>; cell: <a href="tel:802-272-4828" value="+18022724828" target="_blank">802-272-4828</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p><div style="border:none;border-top:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;border-color:-moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color"><p class="MsoNormal">
<b><span style="font-size:10.0pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> <a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>xiaoyang shi<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, March 29, 2011 5:37 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> [Equest-users] question about inefficiency of duct</span></p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Hi folks,<br><br>In the winter time, some heat loss in HVAC is from duct.<br><br>What is the percentage of heat loss through the duct to the total building heat load, due to the inefficiencies of duct delivery system?<br>
<br>Thank you guys.</p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br><br>---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>From: Claudia De Paula <<a href="mailto:claudia_dp@GroupVE.co.il">claudia_dp@GroupVE.co.il</a>><br>
To: "<a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>><br>Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 15:22:06 +0200<br>
Subject: [Equest-users] FCU & occupancy Controls<br><div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US"><div><p>Has anyone had any success in representing HVAC occupancy controls for energy savings in LEED? If so, how did you submit your calculations or did you just input new Fan schedules to simulate the ON & OFF of the units to respond to the occupancy schedules of the building?</p>
<p> </p><p class="MsoNormal">Thanks</p><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><p class="MsoNormal">Claudia</p><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#404040"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div>
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</div><br><br>---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>From: "Bishop, Bill" <<a href="mailto:wbishop@pathfinder-ea.com">wbishop@pathfinder-ea.com</a>><br>To: "M. Shields" <<a href="mailto:mshields@fstrategies.com">mshields@fstrategies.com</a>>, <<a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>><br>
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 09:47:09 -0400<br>Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Thermal Blocks/HVAC Systems for LEED Credit<br>
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Michael,</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">If it were me, I would not try to model
multiple zones as a single thermal block if the zones are served by
different-sized systems. Different system sizes imply the zones are not
thermally-similar.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">If you have created thermal blocks of
stacked apartments that ARE served by the same sized systems, then I think you
are justified in modeling a single system for that zone with the combined
capacities of all the systems and using the efficiency of those systems. But I
agree with the reviewer that you should model each different “stack”
with the size and efficiency of the identical systems in that stack.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">The 90.1 User’s Manual goes into
detail about how/when to create thermal blocks, but I can’t find where it
describes how to combine systems, so this is just my opinion.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Bill</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"> </span></font></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font color="black" face="Franklin Gothic Medium Cond" size="2"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Franklin Gothic Medium Cond";color:black;font-weight:bold">William</span></font></b><b><font color="black" face="Franklin Gothic Medium Cond" size="2"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Franklin Gothic Medium Cond";color:black;font-weight:bold"> Bishop, PE</span></font></b><b><font color="black" face="Franklin Gothic Medium Cond" size="2"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Franklin Gothic Medium Cond";color:black;font-weight:bold">, BEMP, LEED<sup>®</sup>
AP </span></font></b><b><font color="#006600" face="Franklin Gothic Medium Cond" size="2"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Franklin Gothic Medium Cond";color:#006600;font-weight:bold">|</span></font></b><b><font color="black" face="Franklin Gothic Medium Cond" size="2"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Franklin Gothic Medium Cond";color:black;font-weight:bold"> </span></font></b><b><font color="black" face="Franklin Gothic Medium Cond" size="2"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Franklin Gothic Medium Cond";color:black;font-weight:bold">Pathfinder
Engineers & Architects LLP</span></font></b><b><font color="black" face="Franklin Gothic Medium Cond" size="2"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Franklin Gothic Medium Cond";color:black;font-weight:bold"></span></font></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Arial" size="1"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black">Mechanical Engineer</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Arial" size="1"><span style="font-size:5.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="margin-left:367px;margin-top:17px;width:60px;min-height:58px"><img src="" height="58" width="60"></span><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="1"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">134 South Fitzhugh Street</span></font><font color="navy" size="1"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;color:navy"><span> </span></span></font><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="1"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Rochester</span></font><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="1"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">, NY 14608</span></font><font color="navy" size="1"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;color:navy"><br>
</span></font><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="1"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">T: <a href="tel:%28585%29%20325-6004" value="+15853256004" target="_blank">(585) 325-6004</a> </span></font><font color="black" face="Arial" size="1"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black">Ext. 114</span></font><font color="navy"><span style="color:navy"><span> </span></span></font><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="1"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">F: <a href="tel:%28585%29%20325-6005" value="+15853256005" target="_blank">(585) 325-6005</a></span></font><font color="black" face="Arial" size="1"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black"></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Arial" size="1"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black"><a href="mailto:wbishop@pathfinder-ea.com" target="_blank">wbishop@pathfinder-ea.com</a><span> </span></span></font><font color="black" face="Arial" size="1"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black"><a href="http://www.pathfinder-ea.com/" target="_blank">www.pathfinder-ea.com</a></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="green" face="Webdings" size="5"><span style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:Webdings;color:green">P</span></font><font color="green"><span style="color:green"><span> </span></span></font><font color="green" size="1"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;color:green">Sustainability
– the forest AND the trees.</span></font><font color="green" face="Webdings" size="5"><span style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:Webdings;color:green"> P<span> </span></span></font><font color="green" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:green"></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:center" align="center"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"">
<hr align="center" size="2" width="100%">
</span></font></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold">From:</span></font></b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma">
<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b><span style="font-weight:bold">On Behalf Of </span></b>M. Shields<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, March 29, 2011 3:36
PM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b>
<a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> [Equest-users] Thermal
Blocks/HVAC Systems for LEED Credit</span></font><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman""></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Hi
All,</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">I
have modeled a multifamily building for LEED which uses a variable refrigerant
flow system. In the building each stack of apartment’s heating and
cooling is provided by one unit, but the stack next door is provided by a
different unit. The efficiency is determined by the outdoor unit and
varies slightly by size, which is not the same for all apartment units. I
have modeled several apartments as one thermal block and I had calculated an
overall system efficiency by doing a weighted average based on system
size. My reviewer has commented that per G3.1.10a I need to use the
individual system size and efficiency for each system. I am wondering if
they will accept a weighted average by thermal block instead of an overall
system average. It seems quite clear under G3.1.9 that modeling multiple
apartments on the same wall is perfectly acceptable. Do you need to have
multiple systems serve each zone? I did not think this is possible.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Any
thoughts/experience with this situation would be greatly appreciated.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Thanks,</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Michael</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Book Antiqua" size="2"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Book Antiqua"">____________________________<br>
Michael Shields<br>
Facility Strategies Group, LLC</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Book Antiqua" size="2"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Book Antiqua"">1012
Market Street, Suite 307</span></font><font face="Book Antiqua" size="2"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Book Antiqua""></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Book Antiqua" size="2"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Book Antiqua"">Fort
Mill</span></font><font face="Book Antiqua" size="2"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Book Antiqua"">, SC
29708</span></font><font face="Book Antiqua" size="2"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Book Antiqua""></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Book Antiqua" size="2"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Book Antiqua"">Phone: <a href="tel:803-493-4507" value="+18034934507" target="_blank">803-493-4507</a></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Book Antiqua" size="2"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Book Antiqua"">Fax: <a href="tel:803-548-2511" value="+18035482511" target="_blank">803-548-2511</a><br>
Email: <a href="mailto:mshields@fstrategies.com" target="_blank">mshields@fstrategies.com</a></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<br><br>---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>From: John Bixler <JBixler@Sebesta.com><br>To: Paul Diglio <<a href="mailto:paul.diglio@sbcglobal.net">paul.diglio@sbcglobal.net</a>>, "<a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>><br>
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 14:14:39 +0000<br>Subject: Re: [Equest-users] question about inefficiency of duct<br><div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US"><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">In addition to significant delta Ts, please also consider the additional airflow required to cool/heat a space when the supply air delta T (between the supply air and the conditioned space) is lowered due to duct losses.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Example: Say the cooling load requires 100 cfm to cool a space assuming a supply air temp of 55 and a perfectly insulated duct (that is, a duct with no change in temp as it leaves the AHU and gets to the space). The room is 70 degrees, so which makes the sensible cooling in the space about 1630 btu. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Now take this same room, and assume the duct gains 5 degrees between the AHU and the space (note, I am not talking about heat gain from fan energy here). Now the air being supplied to the space is 60 degrees, and to maintain the same sensible cooling capacity, the airflow must be 150 cfm, a 50% increase (!).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">This heat is not lost to the space being cooled (most likely). The idea of *<b>neglible</b>* loss at the room level does not apply.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">At the system level, the idea of *<b>neglible</b>* energy loss may or may not apply. CLEARLY there is additional fan energy used. The heat that is lost from the duct to somewhere, may be recovered to a large degree (in the case of a 100% return air system, where the primary area of energy loss COULD be additional heat gained in the plenum due to increased delta t between the plenum and the OA temp) or it may be lost entirely (in the case of a 100% OA system, which is obviously already a big energy user and this simply adds to the problem). In the case of significant relief of the air the heat is lost to, there is also a large impact on cooling and heating energy as you are moving more air, and trying to maintain the same setpoints at the system level.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">The notion that there is no net effect is really only true if the heat is being lost/gained directly at the location of the temperature sensor/tstat.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">(Most buildings these days have appropriate insulation on the ductwork which minimizes this effect, but it wasn’t that long ago when this wasn’t the case)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> <a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Paul Diglio<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, March 29, 2011 7:32 PM<br><b>To:</b> John Bixler<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] question about inefficiency of duct</span></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">
<span style="font-size:10.0pt">Nick:<br><br>For a supply duct passing through a plenum return ceiling during the cooling season, the temperature difference between the supply air and return air can be as much as 25 degrees.<br>
<br>During the heating season, this difference could be as much as 30 degrees during morning warm up.<br><br>Paul Diglio</span></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> </span></p><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:center" align="center">
<span style="font-size:10.0pt"><hr align="center" size="1" width="100%"></span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> Nick Caton <<a href="mailto:ncaton@smithboucher.com" target="_blank">ncaton@smithboucher.com</a>><br>
<b>To:</b> Paul Diglio <<a href="mailto:paul.diglio@sbcglobal.net" target="_blank">paul.diglio@sbcglobal.net</a>>; "McArdle, Mike" <<a href="mailto:Mike.McAardle@state.vt.us" target="_blank">Mike.McAardle@state.vt.us</a>>; xiaoyang shi <<a href="mailto:xs2144@gmail.com" target="_blank">xs2144@gmail.com</a>>; <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tue, March 29, 2011 8:03:32 PM<br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [Equest-users] question about inefficiency of duct</span></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">I think Mike’s general point is fair and isn’t to be taken in absolutes. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">When a ducted return air stream is passing through a conditioned space or plenums/chases in between other conditioned spaces, it’s probably a safe bet to claim any duct gains/losses are *negligible* (not nonexistent), particularly if said return ducts are insulated, due to the relatively small delta-T.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">On the other hand, winter losses and summertime gains at extreme temperatures may be considerable if any ductwork is routed exterior to the building, even if insulated. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Xiaoyang, if you wish to calculate it as a percentage at design conditions: ( U x A x deltaT )<sub>DUCT</sub> / (total building heating or cooling load) x 100</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">If you wanted to model such exterior duct heat losses/gains in eQuest… I haven’t considered that before – but depending on your system setup, it might be as simple as a small exterior wall surface with appropriate U-value and area equal to the duct surface area… in the event the solar loads incident on the duct might be significant, make a point to correctly locate the surface in 3D (over the roof, along a wall, etc.) to avoid any incorrect self-shading from other surfaces.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">If anyone has delved into this and knows a better/simpler way please do share =).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">~Nick</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"><img src="" alt="cid:489575314@22072009-0ABB" height="37" width="119"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#2D4D5E"> </span></b></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#2D4D5E">NICK CATON, E.I.T.</span></b></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;color:#CC9900">PROJECT ENGINEER</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E">Smith & Boucher Engineers</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E">25501 west valley parkway</span></p><p class="MsoNormal">
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E">olathe ks 66061</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E">direct <a href="tel:913%20344.0036" value="+19133440036" target="_blank">913 344.0036</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E">fax <a href="tel:913%20345.0617" value="+19133450617" target="_blank">913 345.0617</a></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D"><a href="http://www.smithboucher.com" target="_blank">www.smithboucher.com</a></span><u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:blue"> </span></u></p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;border-color:-moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> <a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Paul Diglio<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, March 29, 2011 4:59 PM<br><b>To:</b> McArdle, Mike; xiaoyang shi; <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] question about inefficiency of duct</span></p>
</div></div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">Michael:<br><br>"if the air in duct is the same air as the air being supplied to the space, there is no net effect"? What do you mean by net effect?<br>
<br>The duct heat loss/gain depends on the difference of the temperature of the air in the duct and the temperature of the air surrounding the outside of the duct. It is highly unlikely that these temperature will be the same.<br>
<br>Paul Diglio</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> </span></p><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:center" align="center"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"><hr align="center" size="1" width="100%">
</span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> "McArdle, Mike" <<a href="mailto:Mike.McAardle@state.vt.us" target="_blank">Mike.McAardle@state.vt.us</a>><br>
<b>To:</b> xiaoyang shi <<a href="mailto:xs2144@gmail.com" target="_blank">xs2144@gmail.com</a>>; "<a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tue, March 29, 2011 5:39:40 PM<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] question about inefficiency of duct</span></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">Dear xiaoyang shi</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">It Depends on the temperature differentials between air in duct and space and insulation thickness </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">But more importantly , if the air in duct is the same air as the air being supplied to the space there is no net effect </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Thank you, Sincerely,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Michael J. McArdle , P.E.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Buildings Engineer II, Project Manager </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">State of Vermont, </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Buildings and General Services (BGS)</span></p><p class="MsoNormal">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">2 Governor Aiken Avenue</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Montpelier, Vt. 05633</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Office: <a href="tel:802-828-5650" value="+18028285650" target="_blank">802-828-5650</a>; cell: <a href="tel:802-272-4828" value="+18022724828" target="_blank">802-272-4828</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p><div style="border:none;border-top:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;border-color:-moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color"><p class="MsoNormal">
<b><span style="font-size:10.0pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> <a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>xiaoyang shi<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, March 29, 2011 5:37 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> [Equest-users] question about inefficiency of duct</span></p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Hi folks,<br><br>In the winter time, some heat loss in HVAC is from duct.<br><br>What is the percentage of heat loss through the duct to the total building heat load, due to the inefficiencies of duct delivery system?<br>
<br>Thank you guys.</p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br><br>---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>From: "Brian Smith" <<a href="mailto:brians@murraypc.com">brians@murraypc.com</a>><br>
To: <<a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>><br>Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 08:13:11 -0800<br>Subject: [Equest-users] Modeling DOAS with a dummy zone<br><div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US">
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Thanks for your replays to my email, it was very much appreciated. I tried modeling the doas system with a dummy zone and OA from system. While looking at my Air side reports I found that the DOAS system OSA equaled the sum OSA from each zone in each system (fine that’s logical). But each system has its own OSA total which is larger than the sum of OSA requirements of its zones (not sure why). Whether I model a doas dummy or not the individual system still require the same amount of OSA. Therefore with the dummy air totals added to the system air totals my building needs more OSA and consumes more BTU’s. Not sure what all this means but It would seem bad? Any insights, does this sound right? This makes me think if I could eliminate this Dummy Doas system and zones, and work in the components of DOAS into the other systems I would at least find a different result, but right?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><p class="MsoNormal">Regards,</p><p class="MsoNormal">Brian Smith, <span style="font-size:10.0pt">Mechanical Design Engineer</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">Murray & Associates, P.C.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size:9.0pt">T/<a href="tel:907.780.6151" value="+19077806151" target="_blank">907.780.6151</a> F/<a href="tel:907.780.6182" value="+19077806182" target="_blank">907.780.6182</a></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt"><a href="http://www.murraypc.com" target="_blank"><span style="color:blue">www.murraypc.com</span></a></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt"></span></p><p class="MsoNormal">
</p></div></div><br><br>---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>From: Jeremy Poling <<a href="mailto:Jeremy.Poling@transwestern.net">Jeremy.Poling@transwestern.net</a>><br>To: <<a href="mailto:brians@murraypc.com">brians@murraypc.com</a>>, <<a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>><br>
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 11:37:43 -0500<br>Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Modeling DOAS with a dummy zone<br><div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US"><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Brian,</span></p><p class="MsoNormal">
<span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">First: here’s what the help file says about how the system comes up with OSA flows:</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:white;background:#316AC5">OA-FROM</span></b><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">-SYSTEM</span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">Takes the U-name of the system that supplies dehumidified make-up air either directly, or through the corridor, to apartments or hotel rooms. Make sure that minimum outside air of a make-up air system assigned to the corridor matches the sum of the minimum outside air flow rate of the apartments or hotel rooms. In the input, define the make-up air system prior to the apartment or hotel room system. Several Error and Warning messages are present to prevent incorrect simulations and only simple sizing calculations are available for <span style="color:white;background:#316AC5">OA-FROM</span>-SYSTEM referenced SYSTEMs. In previous versions of DOE-2.2 (before 44c) and 2.1E, if a SYSTEM had an <span style="color:white;background:#316AC5">OA-FROM</span>-SYSTEM specified, the referencing SYSTEM value for MIN-OUTSIDE-AIR was reset to the MIN-OUTSIDE-AIR of the referenced <span style="color:white;background:#316AC5">OA-FROM</span>-SYSTEM; this has been removed and replaced with the action as described next. The sum of the <span style="color:white;background:#316AC5">OA</span> requirements for all SYSTEMs that reference an <span style="color:white;background:#316AC5">OA-FROM</span>-SYSTEM is used to set the referenced <span style="color:white;background:#316AC5">OA-FROM</span>-SYSTEM value for MIN-OUTSIDE-AIR, SUPPLY-FLOW as well as adjust the referenced <span style="color:white;background:#316AC5">OA-FROM</span>-SYSTEM directly served ZONE maximum and minimum flows for both heating and cooling. Additionally the referenced <span style="color:white;background:#316AC5">OA-FROM</span>-SYSTEM has its calculated/specified cooling (total and sensible), heating, and preheat capacities adjusted if its SUPPLY-FLOW was increased. If the referenced <span style="color:white;background:#316AC5">OA-FROM</span>-SYSTEM and its ZONEs have sufficient minimum <span style="color:white;background:#316AC5">OA</span> specified (greater than that required by the referencing SYSTEMs) no adjustments are made. If any adjustments are made a warning is issued that informs the user of the adjustments and recommends the project be re-run with the values in the input corrected. Also, errors are issued (and the simulation terminated) if the referenced <span style="color:white;background:#316AC5">OA-FROM</span>-SYSTEM is either an incorrect type (a zonal system or a system that cannot have outside air) or the referenced <span style="color:white;background:#316AC5">OA-FROM</span>-SYSTEM is not placed into the input file before all referencing SYSTEMs.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">There could also be a couple of places causing the system OSA to exceed the sum of the zone OSA for each system, depending on how you set the model up:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p><span style="font-family:Symbol;color:#1F497D"><span>-<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><span style="color:#1F497D">If your project has a specified elevation greater than 0 then eQuest will be correcting airflows for elevation. ASHRAE Fundamentals directs that if you’re less than 1,000 ft above sea level you can usually ignore elevation effects on CFM values, therefore if that applies you can zero out that value (see below)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="margin-left:85px;margin-top:195px;width:231px;min-height:35px"><img src="" height="35" width="231"></span><img src="" height="408" width="542"><span style="color:#1F497D"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p><span style="font-family:Symbol;color:#1F497D"><span>-<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><span style="color:#1F497D">If you’re looking at the proposed model, make sure you don’t have any sizing factors in place for the system (unless you intend to run the calculations that way).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="margin-left:85px;margin-top:364px;width:231px;min-height:35px"><img src="" height="35" width="231"></span><span style="color:#1F497D"><img src="" height="658" width="1052"></span><span style="color:#1F497D"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:7.5pt;color:#1F497D">Jeremy R. Poling, PE, LEED AP+BDC</span></b><span style="color:#1F497D"><br><br></span><span style="color:#1F497D"></span></p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> <a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Brian Smith<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 30, 2011 11:13 AM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> [Equest-users] Modeling DOAS with a dummy zone</span></p>
</div></div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Thanks for your replays to my email, it was very much appreciated. I tried modeling the doas system with a dummy zone and OA from system. While looking at my Air side reports I found that the DOAS system OSA equaled the sum OSA from each zone in each system (fine that’s logical). But each system has its own OSA total which is larger than the sum of OSA requirements of its zones (not sure why). Whether I model a doas dummy or not the individual system still require the same amount of OSA. Therefore with the dummy air totals added to the system air totals my building needs more OSA and consumes more BTU’s. Not sure what all this means but It would seem bad? Any insights, does this sound right? This makes me think if I could eliminate this Dummy Doas system and zones, and work in the components of DOAS into the other systems I would at least find a different result, but right?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><p class="MsoNormal">Regards,</p><p class="MsoNormal">Brian Smith, <span style="font-size:10.0pt">Mechanical Design Engineer</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">Murray & Associates, P.C.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size:9.0pt">T/<a href="tel:907.780.6151" value="+19077806151" target="_blank">907.780.6151</a> F/<a href="tel:907.780.6182" value="+19077806182" target="_blank">907.780.6182</a></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"MS Shell Dlg""></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt"><a href="http://www.murraypc.com" target="_blank">www.murraypc.com</a></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div></div><br><br>---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>
From: "Haddad, Kamel" <<a href="mailto:Kamel.Haddad@NRCan-RNCan.gc.ca">Kamel.Haddad@NRCan-RNCan.gc.ca</a>><br>To: "Jeremy Poling" <<a href="mailto:Jeremy.Poling@transwestern.net">Jeremy.Poling@transwestern.net</a>>, <<a href="mailto:brians@murraypc.com">brians@murraypc.com</a>>, <<a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>><br>
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 13:01:35 -0400<br>Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Modeling DOAS with a dummy zone<br>
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US">
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2">I would also add here that you can sign the OA for the
system either based on "Sum of Zone OA" or "Set by Critical
Zone".</font></span></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"></font></span> </div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2">When you size using "Set by Critical Zone" the system OA will
be greater than the sum of the zone OA requirements to compensate for the
diversity in the OA requirements of the zones.</font></span></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"></font></span> </div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2">Kamel Haddad</font></span></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left" lang="en-us"><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"> </font></span></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left" lang="en-us"><span> </span></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left" lang="en-us">
<hr>
</div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left" lang="en-us"><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Jeremy
Poling<br><b>Sent:</b> March 30, 2011 12:38<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:brians@murraypc.com" target="_blank">brians@murraypc.com</a>;
<a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users]
Modeling DOAS with a dummy zone<br></font><br></div>
<div></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">Brian,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">First: here’s what the help file
says about how the system comes up with OSA flows:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:'Times New Roman','serif';background:#316ac5;color:white;font-size:10pt">OA-FROM</span></b><b><span style="font-family:'Times New Roman','serif';font-size:10pt">-SYSTEM</span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:'Times New Roman','serif';font-size:12pt">Takes the U-name
of the system that supplies dehumidified make-up air either directly, or through
the corridor, to apartments or hotel rooms. Make sure that minimum outside air
of a make-up air system assigned to the corridor matches the sum of the minimum
outside air flow rate of the apartments or hotel rooms. In the input, define the
make-up air system prior to the apartment or hotel room system. Several Error
and Warning messages are present to prevent incorrect simulations and only
simple sizing calculations are available for <span style="background:#316ac5;color:white">OA-FROM</span>-SYSTEM referenced
SYSTEMs. In previous versions of DOE-2.2 (before 44c) and 2.1E, if a
SYSTEM had an <span style="background:#316ac5;color:white">OA-FROM</span>-SYSTEM specified, the
referencing SYSTEM value for MIN-OUTSIDE-AIR was reset to the MIN-OUTSIDE-AIR of
the referenced <span style="background:#316ac5;color:white">OA-FROM</span>-SYSTEM; this has been
removed and replaced with the action as described next. The sum of the <span style="background:#316ac5;color:white">OA</span> requirements for all SYSTEMs
that reference an <span style="background:#316ac5;color:white">OA-FROM</span>-SYSTEM is used to set
the referenced <span style="background:#316ac5;color:white">OA-FROM</span>-SYSTEM value for
MIN-OUTSIDE-AIR, SUPPLY-FLOW as well as adjust the referenced <span style="background:#316ac5;color:white">OA-FROM</span>-SYSTEM directly served
ZONE maximum and minimum flows for both heating and cooling. Additionally
the referenced <span style="background:#316ac5;color:white">OA-FROM</span>-SYSTEM has its
calculated/specified cooling (total and sensible), heating, and preheat
capacities adjusted if its SUPPLY-FLOW was increased. If the referenced
<span style="background:#316ac5;color:white">OA-FROM</span>-SYSTEM and its
ZONEs have sufficient minimum <span style="background:#316ac5;color:white">OA</span> specified (greater than that
required by the referencing SYSTEMs) no adjustments are made. If any
adjustments are made a warning is issued that informs the user of the
adjustments and recommends the project be re-run with the values in the input
corrected. Also, errors are issued (and the simulation terminated) if the
referenced <span style="background:#316ac5;color:white">OA-FROM</span>-SYSTEM
is either an incorrect type (a zonal system or a system that cannot have outside
air) or the referenced <span style="background:#316ac5;color:white">OA-FROM</span>-SYSTEM is not placed
into the input file before all referencing SYSTEMs.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">There could also be a couple of
places causing the system OSA to exceed the sum of the zone OSA for each system,
depending on how you set the model up:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:Symbol;color:#1f497d"><span>-<span style="font:7pt 'Times New Roman'">
</span></span></span><span style="color:#1f497d">If your project has
a specified elevation greater than 0 then eQuest will be correcting airflows for
elevation. ASHRAE Fundamentals directs that if you’re less than 1,000 ft
above sea level you can usually ignore elevation effects on CFM values,
therefore if that applies you can zero out that value (see
below)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p style="margin-left:0.5in" class="MsoNormal"><span style="margin-top:195px;width:231px;min-height:35px;margin-left:85px"><img src="" height="35" width="231"></span><img src="" height="408" width="542"><span style="color:#1f497d"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:Symbol;color:#1f497d"><span>-<span style="font:7pt 'Times New Roman'">
</span></span></span><span style="color:#1f497d">If you’re looking at
the proposed model, make sure you don’t have any sizing factors in place for the
system (unless you intend to run the calculations that
way).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p style="margin-left:0.5in" class="MsoNormal"><span style="margin-top:364px;width:231px;min-height:35px;margin-left:85px"><img src="" height="35" width="231"></span><span style="color:#1f497d"><img src="" height="658" width="1052"></span><span style="color:#1f497d"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:#1f497d;font-size:7.5pt">Jeremy
R. Poling, PE, LEED AP+BDC</span></b><span style="color:#1f497d"><br><br></span><span style="color:#1f497d"></span></p></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="border-bottom:medium none;border-left:medium none;padding-bottom:0in;padding-left:0in;padding-right:0in;border-top:#b5c4df 1pt solid;border-right:medium none;padding-top:3pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt">
<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Brian
Smith<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 30, 2011 11:13 AM<br><b>To:</b>
<a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> [Equest-users] Modeling
DOAS with a dummy zone</span></p></div></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">Thanks for your replays to my
email, it was very much appreciated. I tried modeling the doas system with a
dummy zone and OA from system. While looking at my Air side reports I found that
the DOAS system OSA equaled the sum OSA from each zone in each system (fine
that’s logical). But each system has its own OSA total which is larger than the
sum of OSA requirements of its zones (not sure why). Whether I model a doas
dummy or not the individual system still require the same amount of OSA.
Therefore with the dummy air totals added to the system air totals my building
needs more OSA and consumes more BTU’s. Not sure what all this means but It
would seem bad? Any insights, does this sound right? This makes me think if I
could eliminate this Dummy Doas system and zones, and work in the components of
DOAS into the other systems I would at least find a different result, but
right?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Regards,</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Brian Smith, <span style="font-size:10pt">Mechanical Design
Engineer</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">Murray & Associates,
P.C.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9pt">T/<a href="tel:907.780.6151" value="+19077806151" target="_blank">907.780.6151</a>
F/<a href="tel:907.780.6182" value="+19077806182" target="_blank">907.780.6182</a></span><span style="font-family:'MS Shell Dlg';font-size:9pt"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9pt"><a href="http://www.murraypc.com" target="_blank">www.murraypc.com</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div></div>
<br><br>---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>From: Charles Land <<a href="mailto:cland@geo-marine.com">cland@geo-marine.com</a>><br>To: "Haddad, Kamel" <<a href="mailto:Kamel.Haddad@NRCan-RNCan.gc.ca">Kamel.Haddad@NRCan-RNCan.gc.ca</a>>, Jeremy Poling <<a href="mailto:Jeremy.Poling@transwestern.net">Jeremy.Poling@transwestern.net</a>>, "<a href="mailto:brians@murraypc.com">brians@murraypc.com</a>" <<a href="mailto:brians@murraypc.com">brians@murraypc.com</a>>, "<a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>><br>
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 12:25:13 -0500<br>Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Modeling DOAS with a dummy zone<br><div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US"><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">I would also check the outside air per person under the zones.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> <a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Haddad, Kamel<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 30, 2011 1:02 PM<br><b>To:</b> Jeremy Poling; <a href="mailto:brians@murraypc.com" target="_blank">brians@murraypc.com</a>; <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Modeling DOAS with a dummy zone</span></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:blue">I would also add here that you can sign the OA for the system either based on "Sum of Zone OA" or "Set by Critical Zone".</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif""></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif""> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:blue">When you size using "Set by Critical Zone" the system OA will be greater than the sum of the zone OA requirements to compensate for the diversity in the OA requirements of the zones.</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif""></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif""> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:blue">Kamel Haddad</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif""></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:blue"> </span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif""></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif""> </span></p>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:center" align="center"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif""><hr align="center" size="2" width="100%"></span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">
<b><span style="font-size:10.0pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> <a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Jeremy Poling<br>
<b>Sent:</b> March 30, 2011 12:38<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:brians@murraypc.com" target="_blank">brians@murraypc.com</a>; <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Modeling DOAS with a dummy zone</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif""></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Brian,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">First: here’s what the help file says about how the system comes up with OSA flows:</span></p><p class="MsoNormal">
<span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:white;background:#316AC5">OA-FROM</span></b><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">-SYSTEM</span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">Takes the U-name of the system that supplies dehumidified make-up air either directly, or through the corridor, to apartments or hotel rooms. Make sure that minimum outside air of a make-up air system assigned to the corridor matches the sum of the minimum outside air flow rate of the apartments or hotel rooms. In the input, define the make-up air system prior to the apartment or hotel room system. Several Error and Warning messages are present to prevent incorrect simulations and only simple sizing calculations are available for <span style="color:white;background:#316AC5">OA-FROM</span>-SYSTEM referenced SYSTEMs. In previous versions of DOE-2.2 (before 44c) and 2.1E, if a SYSTEM had an <span style="color:white;background:#316AC5">OA-FROM</span>-SYSTEM specified, the referencing SYSTEM value for MIN-OUTSIDE-AIR was reset to the MIN-OUTSIDE-AIR of the referenced <span style="color:white;background:#316AC5">OA-FROM</span>-SYSTEM; this has been removed and replaced with the action as described next. The sum of the <span style="color:white;background:#316AC5">OA</span> requirements for all SYSTEMs that reference an <span style="color:white;background:#316AC5">OA-FROM</span>-SYSTEM is used to set the referenced <span style="color:white;background:#316AC5">OA-FROM</span>-SYSTEM value for MIN-OUTSIDE-AIR, SUPPLY-FLOW as well as adjust the referenced <span style="color:white;background:#316AC5">OA-FROM</span>-SYSTEM directly served ZONE maximum and minimum flows for both heating and cooling. Additionally the referenced <span style="color:white;background:#316AC5">OA-FROM</span>-SYSTEM has its calculated/specified cooling (total and sensible), heating, and preheat capacities adjusted if its SUPPLY-FLOW was increased. If the referenced <span style="color:white;background:#316AC5">OA-FROM</span>-SYSTEM and its ZONEs have sufficient minimum <span style="color:white;background:#316AC5">OA</span> specified (greater than that required by the referencing SYSTEMs) no adjustments are made. If any adjustments are made a warning is issued that informs the user of the adjustments and recommends the project be re-run with the values in the input corrected. Also, errors are issued (and the simulation terminated) if the referenced <span style="color:white;background:#316AC5">OA-FROM</span>-SYSTEM is either an incorrect type (a zonal system or a system that cannot have outside air) or the referenced <span style="color:white;background:#316AC5">OA-FROM</span>-SYSTEM is not placed into the input file before all referencing SYSTEMs.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">There could also be a couple of places causing the system OSA to exceed the sum of the zone OSA for each system, depending on how you set the model up:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p><span style="font-family:Symbol;color:#1F497D">-</span><span style="font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="color:#1F497D">If your project has a specified elevation greater than 0 then eQuest will be correcting airflows for elevation. ASHRAE Fundamentals directs that if you’re less than 1,000 ft above sea level you can usually ignore elevation effects on CFM values, therefore if that applies you can zero out that value (see below)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="margin-left:85px;margin-top:195px;width:231px;min-height:35px"><img src="" height="35" width="231"></span><img src="" height="408" width="542"><span style="color:#1F497D"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p><span style="font-family:Symbol;color:#1F497D">-</span><span style="font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="color:#1F497D">If you’re looking at the proposed model, make sure you don’t have any sizing factors in place for the system (unless you intend to run the calculations that way).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="margin-left:85px;margin-top:364px;width:231px;min-height:35px"><img src="" height="35" width="231"></span><span style="color:#1F497D"><img src="" height="658" width="1052"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style="font-size:7.5pt;color:#1F497D">Jeremy R. Poling, PE, LEED AP+BDC</span></b><span style="color:#1F497D"></span></p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> <a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Brian Smith<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 30, 2011 11:13 AM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> [Equest-users] Modeling DOAS with a dummy zone</span></p>
</div></div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Thanks for your replays to my email, it was very much appreciated. I tried modeling the doas system with a dummy zone and OA from system. While looking at my Air side reports I found that the DOAS system OSA equaled the sum OSA from each zone in each system (fine that’s logical). But each system has its own OSA total which is larger than the sum of OSA requirements of its zones (not sure why). Whether I model a doas dummy or not the individual system still require the same amount of OSA. Therefore with the dummy air totals added to the system air totals my building needs more OSA and consumes more BTU’s. Not sure what all this means but It would seem bad? Any insights, does this sound right? This makes me think if I could eliminate this Dummy Doas system and zones, and work in the components of DOAS into the other systems I would at least find a different result, but right?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><p class="MsoNormal">Regards,</p><p class="MsoNormal">Brian Smith, <span style="font-size:10.0pt">Mechanical Design Engineer</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">Murray & Associates, P.C.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt">T/<a href="tel:907.780.6151" value="+19077806151" target="_blank">907.780.6151</a> F/<a href="tel:907.780.6182" value="+19077806182" target="_blank">907.780.6182</a></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt"><a href="http://www.murraypc.com" target="_blank">www.murraypc.com</a></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div></div><br><br>---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>
From: <a href="mailto:vipulbabriya@aol.com">vipulbabriya@aol.com</a><br>To: <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 16:09:11 -0400 (EDT)<br>Subject: [Equest-users] Actual daily weather data for year 2005 to 2010<br>
<font color="black" face="arial" size="2">
<div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<font size="2"><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hi all,<br>
<br>
I am looking for actual daily weather data for US locations. Before it was publicly </font></font><font size="2"><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">available</font></font><font size="2"><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"> on this web site: </font></font>
<div><span><span>1.<span> </span></span></span>
</div>
<div><span><span>1.<span> </span></span></span><a href="http://apps1.eere.energy.gov/buildings/energyplus/weatherdata_download.cfm" target="_blank">http://apps1.eere.energy.gov/buildings/energyplus/weatherdata_download.cfm<font size="2"><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><br>
</font></font></a></div>
<div><font size="2"><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><br>
</font></font></div>
<div><font size="2"><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">I I am wondering whether they have stopped updating or moved to the different location. <br>
</font></font></div>
<div><font size="2"><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <br>
</font></font></div>
<div><font size="2"><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Thank you very much for help.</font></font></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><font size="2"><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Vipul</font></font></div>
</div>
<div style="clear:both"></div>
</font><br><br>---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>From: Ashu Gupta <<a href="mailto:agupta@enernoc.com">agupta@enernoc.com</a>><br>To: "<a href="mailto:vipulbabriya@aol.com">vipulbabriya@aol.com</a>" <<a href="mailto:vipulbabriya@aol.com">vipulbabriya@aol.com</a>><br>
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 16:14:29 -0400<br>Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Actual daily weather data for year 2005 to 2010<br>
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US"><div><p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Hey Vipul,</span></i></p><p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">You can download US weather files from here. I think you were on different link.</span></i></p><p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"><a href="http://apps1.eere.energy.gov/buildings/energyplus/cfm/weather_data3.cfm/region=4_north_and_central_america_wmo_region_4/country=1_usa/cname=USA" target="_blank">http://apps1.eere.energy.gov/buildings/energyplus/cfm/weather_data3.cfm/region=4_north_and_central_america_wmo_region_4/country=1_usa/cname=USA</a></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></i></p><p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Thanks!</span></i></p><p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Ashu</span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></i></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#144572">Ashu Gupta – Project Engineer, Energy Services</span></i></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#144572">EnerNOC, Inc. | 2300 Clayton Rd., S480 | Concord, CA 94520</span></i></b></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#144572">m: <a href="tel:925.775.8254" value="+19257758254" target="_blank">925.775.8254</a> | O: <a href="tel:925.826.1618" value="+19258261618" target="_blank">925.826.1618</a></span></i></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#144572"><a href="mailto:agupta@enernoc.com" target="_blank">agupta@enernoc.com</a> | <a href="http://www.enernoc.com" target="_blank">www.enernoc.com</a></span></i></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#144572">EnerNOC - get more from energy</span></i></b></p><p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Webdings;color:green">ü</span></i><i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:green"> Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.e</span></i><i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#003E74"></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0E2778"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> <a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b><a href="mailto:vipulbabriya@aol.com" target="_blank">vipulbabriya@aol.com</a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 30, 2011 1:09 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> [Equest-users] Actual daily weather data for year 2005 to 2010</span></p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black"> </span></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black">Hi all,<br><br>I am looking for actual daily weather data for US locations. Before it was publicly available on this web site: </span></p>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black">1. </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black">1. <a href="http://apps1.eere.energy.gov/buildings/energyplus/weatherdata_download.cfm" target="_blank">http://apps1.eere.energy.gov/buildings/energyplus/weatherdata_download.cfm<br>
</a></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black"> </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black">I I am wondering whether they have stopped updating or moved to the different location. </span></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black"> </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black"> Thank you very much for help.</span></p></div><div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black"> </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black"> </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black"> Vipul</span></p>
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<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><span style="color:rgb(0, 102, 0)">Morteza Kasmai </span><br style="color:rgb(0, 102, 0)"><span style="color:rgb(0, 102, 0)">Architect, LEED® AP</span><br>
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