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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Neat discussion – looks like my position on this is going
to go against the grain a bit =)!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>First, the CIR Demba referenced looks like something of prime
interest… I understand CIR’s don’t exactly hold water with
the current LEED reviewer-ship, but it would sure help at times know whether
history is on your side…<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I can offer some recent directly related experience: Without
having been aware of that particular CIR, I recently wrapped up a LEED project
with HVAC gas furnace heating used only for morning warmup/preheat at the
central AHU. The proposed system otherwise was effectively well-described by baseline
system #6, with electric reheat accomplishing the vast majority of conditioned
air heating (substantial heat recovery was a part of this), so I used baseline
system #6. The reviewer on first pass stated the baseline needed to be system #5
due to the presence of gas heating, and I composed a comment response substantiating
why the electrical heating was the “predominant condition,”
referencing the corresponding subnote to Table G3.1.1A… Had I been aware
of a CIR to the same effect I would have included a reference. The model has
since been approved and all resubmitted credits have been awarded =).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I can’t guarantee your reviewer will consider the issue at
hand in the same fashion, but in these sorts of cases applying an “all
gas” baseline system against a “99% electric” proposed system
can make for a truly unfair comparison when the utility rates are quite
different.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>For those not keeping score, I don’t use a term like “unfair”
lightly or often. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>A completely literal reading of 90.1-2007 Table G3.1.1A may lead
you to use system #5 over #6, and for that reason it’s not wrong to say
that’s a “right” answer. On the other hand a case can be
made, particularly if you can demonstrate that the HW preconditioning is a
small fraction of the total space heating energy, that the intent of the “predominant
condition” subnote speaks directly to this instance and can present another
“right” answer. Without using a word like “unfair,” be
prepared to intelligently discuss why system #6 is fundamentally a <u>better</u>
baseline for the purposes of establishing a performance rating against your
proposed systems.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Finding and referencing that CIR Demba mentioned wouldn’t
hurt either… =)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>~Nick<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>PS: On a related tangent… how do you guys find past CIR’s?
I can only ever get so far using google – is there some kind of archive currently
within LEED online I’ve been missing?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><img width=119 height=37 id="Picture_x0020_1"
src="cid:image001.jpg@01CBEAE2.23010910" alt="cid:489575314@22072009-0ABB"></span><b><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E'><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>NICK CATON, E.I.T.</span></b><b><span style='font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#CC9900'>PROJECT ENGINEER<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>Smith & Boucher Engineers</span><span style='font-size:7.5pt;
color:#CC9900'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>25501 west valley parkway<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>olathe ks 66061<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>direct 913 344.0036<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>fax 913 345.0617<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><a href="www.smithboucher.com"
title="blocked::www.smithboucher.com"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>www.smithboucher.com</span></a></span><u><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:blue'> </span></u><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Will
Mak<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, March 24, 2011 1:56 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Carol Gardner<br>
<b>Cc:</b> equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] electric heating issues<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Sorry, I thought I put down that the baseboard and VAV reheat
coils were electrical, not hot water. The hot water is only for the preheat.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#C75B12'>William Mak, LEED Green Associate</span></b><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><br>
</span><span style='font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Mechanical Design Engineer</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><br>
</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><br>
</span><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#C75B12'>EPSTEIN</span></b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><br>
</span><span style='font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Architecture<br>
Interiors<br>
Engineering<br>
Construction<br>
<br>
600 West Fulton Street<br>
Chicago, Illinois 60661-1259<br>
<br>
D: (312) 429-8116<br>
F: (312) 429-8800</span><span style='font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>E:</span><span style='font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#0070C0'> <a href="mailto:wmak@epsteinglobal.com">wmak@epsteinglobal.com</a></span><span
style='font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><br>
W:</span><span style='font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#C75B12'> <a href="http://www.epsteinglobal.com/"><span style='color:
#C75B12'>www.epsteinglobal.com</span></a></span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><br>
<br>
</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Webdings;color:#00B050'>ş</span><span
style='font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> Epstein
is a firm believer in sustainability. We ask that you please consider the
environment before printing this e-mail.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Carol Gardner
[mailto:cmg750@gmail.com] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, March 24, 2011 1:41 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Will Mak<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Rob Hudson; equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] electric heating issues<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Hi Will,<br>
<br>
Sorry to say but I agree with Rob and Bill. If you are providing heated hot
water to the baseboards then you are using a hybrid system. Maybe I am missing
something, but it seems pretty clear.<br>
<br>
Carol<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 11:10 AM, Will Mak <<a
href="mailto:wmak@epsteinglobal.com">wmak@epsteinglobal.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'>I thought the heating system only
referred to the heating source itself? (not including preheat fuel source??)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span
style='color:#C75B12'>William Mak, LEED Green Associate</span></b><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;color:#1F497D'><br>
</span><span style='font-size:8.0pt;color:black'>Mechanical Design Engineer</span><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;color:black'><br>
</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;color:#1F497D'><br>
</span><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#C75B12'>EPSTEIN</span></b><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;color:#1F497D'><br>
</span><span style='font-size:8.0pt;color:black'>Architecture<br>
Interiors<br>
Engineering<br>
Construction<br>
<br>
600 West Fulton Street<br>
Chicago, Illinois 60661-1259<br>
<br>
D: <a href="tel:%28312%29%20429-8116" target="_blank">(312) 429-8116</a><br>
F: <a href="tel:%28312%29%20429-8800" target="_blank">(312) 429-8800</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:8.0pt;color:black'>E:</span><span style='font-size:8.0pt;
color:#0070C0'> <a href="mailto:wmak@epsteinglobal.com" target="_blank">wmak@epsteinglobal.com</a></span><span
style='font-size:8.0pt;color:black'><br>
W:</span><span style='font-size:8.0pt;color:#C75B12'> <a
href="http://www.epsteinglobal.com/" target="_blank"><span style='color:#C75B12'>www.epsteinglobal.com</span></a></span><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;color:black'><br>
<br>
</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Webdings;color:#00B050'>ş</span><span
style='font-size:8.0pt;color:black'> Epstein is a firm believer in
sustainability. We ask that you please consider the environment before printing
this e-mail.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> Rob
Hudson [mailto:<a href="mailto:rdh4176@gmail.com" target="_blank">rdh4176@gmail.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, March 24, 2011 12:23 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Will Mak<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Bishop, Bill; <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org"
target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] electric heating issues</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>as
per the baseline system discussion, i would use System 5. If you read the
90.1 manual, it says if you use a fossil/electric hybrid heating system
to implement System 5 in the baseline.<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Rob<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>On
Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 12:14 PM, Will Mak <<a
href="mailto:wmak@epsteinglobal.com" target="_blank">wmak@epsteinglobal.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'>See comments below, thanks!</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span
style='color:#C75B12'>William Mak, LEED Green Associate</span></b><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;color:#1F497D'><br>
</span><span style='font-size:8.0pt;color:black'>Mechanical Design Engineer</span><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;color:black'><br>
</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;color:#1F497D'><br>
</span><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#C75B12'>EPSTEIN</span></b><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;color:#1F497D'><br>
</span><span style='font-size:8.0pt;color:black'>Architecture<br>
Interiors<br>
Engineering<br>
Construction<br>
<br>
600 West Fulton Street<br>
Chicago, Illinois 60661-1259<br>
<br>
D: <a href="tel:%28312%29%20429-8116" target="_blank">(312) 429-8116</a><br>
F: <a href="tel:%28312%29%20429-8800" target="_blank">(312) 429-8800</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:8.0pt;color:black'>E:</span><span style='font-size:8.0pt;
color:#0070C0'> <a href="mailto:wmak@epsteinglobal.com" target="_blank">wmak@epsteinglobal.com</a></span><span
style='font-size:8.0pt;color:black'><br>
W:</span><span style='font-size:8.0pt;color:#C75B12'> <a
href="http://www.epsteinglobal.com/" target="_blank"><span style='color:#C75B12'>www.epsteinglobal.com</span></a></span><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;color:black'><br>
<br>
</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Webdings;color:#00B050'>ş</span><span
style='font-size:8.0pt;color:black'> Epstein is a firm believer in
sustainability. We ask that you please consider the environment before printing
this e-mail.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>
Bishop, Bill [mailto:<a href="mailto:wbishop@pathfinder-ea.com" target="_blank">wbishop@pathfinder-ea.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, March 24, 2011 10:21 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Will Mak; <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org"
target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Equest-users] electric heating issues</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:navy'>Will,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:navy'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:navy'>The first thing I would do is reconsider
your selection of System 6 for the Baseline. Since you have gas boilers for
preheat, I would choose System 5. System 6 is all electric, but you say your
baseline gas consumption is high, so you are currently modeling gas boiler(s)
in the baseline. Unfortunately, if you go with System 5, your baseline reheat
will be hot water which will save cost versus your proposed design.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:red'>Yes, I am modeling the gas boilers in the
baseline purely for preheating. So you are saying that because I am modeling
gas boilers (even though they are just for preheat), I technically can run with
System #5 for my baseline model?</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:navy'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:navy'>Since both your baseboards and your reheat
are electric in the proposed design, your high electric use is probably not a
baseboard control issue (provided you are not showing many unmet load hours).
One thing to consider is your preheat leaving temperature – making it
higher will favor the gas boilers and reduce the zone electric heating.
I’m guessing that the requirement for identical preheat coil control in
G3.1.2.3 means that you use the same preheat leaving temperature in the
baseline and proposed models.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:red'>I currently have both models at minimum
leaving temperatures for preheat of 60F (which is the design preheat leaving
air temp). You would think that because the preheat is pumping out 60F air to
the VAV boxes, you would see similar zone heating requirements. However, the
proposed design’s zone heating is much higher. Could it possibly be the
parallel fan powered boxes that help the baseline model that much?</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:navy'>Make sure you are modeling your ventilation
identically between the baseline and proposed models, unless you have DCV.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:red'>Yup, I have the same OA cfms for both models</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:navy'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:navy'>Check your reports to make sure you
don’t have a lot of simultaneous heating and cooling going on. Maybe you
can increase the cooling supply temperature (and convince the HVAC designer to
do it) to the highest allowable temperature that meets cooling and
dehumidification loads.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:red'>Currently, I have the cooling supply temp at
52.5 F. This was because the design engineer wanted to take advantage of the
efficiency of the chillers on the project for cooling energy savings. Perhaps
this could be the issue? The cooling temperature is too low that it triggers
the reheat/baseboard to kick on all the time??</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:navy'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:navy'>Your baseline may have similar, or even
less, heating load depending on the proposed envelope, due to the reduced
lighting load in the proposed design. With electric baseboard and electric
reheat, it will be difficult to show much heating savings unless you have a
much better envelope or ventilation heat recovery. We should all be
red-flagging electric reheat and baseboards whenever we see them on projects.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:red'>So you are saying that electric heat/reheat is
bad for 90.1 PRM??</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:red'> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:red'>Thanks for the response!</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:navy'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:navy'>Regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:navy'>Bill</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:navy'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>William Bishop, PE, BEMP, LEED<sup>®</sup>
AP </span></b><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#006600'>|</span></b><b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'> Pathfinder Engineers & Architects LLP</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;color:black'>Mechanical Engineer</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:5.0pt;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b>Error!
Filename not specified.</b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;color:navy'>134 South
Fitzhugh
Street
Rochester, NY 14608<br>
T: <a href="tel:%28585%29%20325-6004" target="_blank">(585) 325-6004</a> </span><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;color:black'>Ext. 114</span><span style='color:navy'>
</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;color:navy'>F: <a
href="tel:%28585%29%20325-6005" target="_blank">(585) 325-6005</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;color:black'><a href="mailto:wbishop@pathfinder-ea.com"
target="_blank">wbishop@pathfinder-ea.com</a>
<a href="http://www.pathfinder-ea.com/" target="_blank">www.pathfinder-ea.com</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:18.0pt;font-family:Webdings;color:green'>P</span><span
style='color:green'> </span><span style='font-size:7.5pt;
color:green'>Sustainability – the forest AND the trees.</span><span
style='font-size:18.0pt;font-family:Webdings;color:green'> P </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <a
href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org"
target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of
</b>Will Mak<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, March 24, 2011 10:31 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Equest-users] electric heating issues</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>Hello all,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>I currently modeling a project for LEED NC v2009
submission for a corporate office building that’s roughly 125,000 SF. The
proposed design’s primary HVAC system are AHUs + VAVs w/Electric Reheat
supplemented with electric baseboard along hot water preheat generated from gas
boilers. This system also uses chilled water with very efficient chillers from
a DES. The baseboard is suppose to take care of the envelope loads and the VAV
electric reheat coils will take care of the rest. Based on the size of the
building, the baseline HVAC system shall be System #6: Packaged VAV with PFP
Boxes.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>I’m pretty down the road on the models and for
some reason cannot get savings between the 2 models. The heating energy use on
electrical consumption overrides any savings attributed from lighting, site
lighting, cooling energy use, etc. Also, I know that in 90.1-2007, preheat must
be model identical on the proposed and baseline models. I am having a hard time
modeling both to be the same (inputs for preheat capacity are the same but the
energy use is different). The gas consumption is significantly higher on the
baseline model. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>I double checked the loads from both models and the
heating/cooling requirements are roughly the same so there’s nothing
wrong with the building shell/internal load inputs. Any guidance on how to
reduce the consumption on the heating use for electrical consumption would be
great! I am confused why the baseline model wouldn’t require similar, if
not more, heating requirements and isn’t using more heating use for
electrical consumption. Also, guidance to ensure that the preheat is model
identical would help too!</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>Thanks!</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>Cliffnotes:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>Proposed System: AHUs w/VAV Electric Reheat + Electric
Baseboard//Chilled Water from DES//Hot Water Preheat</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>Baseline System: Packaged VAV with PFP Boxes</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>Issue #1: Heating electrical consumption is super high
on proposed model despite similar loads for both models.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>Issue #2: Preheat is not being model identical as
required from 90.1-2007. Capacity and design inputs are same for building but
baseline building is using significantly more gas.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span
style='color:#C75B12'>William Mak, LEED Green Associate</span></b><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;color:#1F497D'><br>
</span><span style='font-size:8.0pt;color:black'>Mechanical Design Engineer</span><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;color:black'><br>
</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;color:#1F497D'><br>
</span><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#C75B12'>EPSTEIN</span></b><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;color:#1F497D'><br>
</span><span style='font-size:8.0pt;color:black'>Architecture<br>
Interiors<br>
Engineering<br>
Construction<br>
<br>
600 West Fulton Street<br>
Chicago, Illinois 60661-1259<br>
<br>
D: <a href="tel:%28312%29%20429-8116" target="_blank">(312) 429-8116</a><br>
F: <a href="tel:%28312%29%20429-8800" target="_blank">(312) 429-8800</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:8.0pt;color:black'>E:</span><span style='font-size:8.0pt;
color:#0070C0'> <a href="mailto:wmak@epsteinglobal.com" target="_blank">wmak@epsteinglobal.com</a></span><span
style='font-size:8.0pt;color:black'><br>
W:</span><span style='font-size:8.0pt;color:#C75B12'> <a
href="http://www.epsteinglobal.com/" target="_blank"><span style='color:#C75B12'>www.epsteinglobal.com</span></a></span><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;color:black'><br>
<br>
</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Webdings;color:#00B050'>ş</span><span
style='font-size:8.0pt;color:black'> Epstein is a firm believer in
sustainability. We ask that you please consider the environment before printing
this e-mail.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#888888'><br>
<br clear=all>
<br>
-- <br>
Rob Hudson<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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