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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Nick,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Try this link. You may have to have a USGBC account.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><a href="https://www.usgbc.org/leedinterpretations/lilanding.aspx">https://www.usgbc.org/leedinterpretations/lilanding.aspx</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Luke Wilson<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Nick Caton<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, March 25, 2011 1:42 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Will Mak; Carol Gardner<br>
<b>Cc:</b> equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] electric heating issues<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Neat discussion – looks like my position on this is going to go against the grain a bit =)!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">First, the CIR Demba referenced looks like something of prime interest… I understand CIR’s don’t exactly hold water with the current LEED reviewer-ship, but
it would sure help at times know whether history is on your side…<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I can offer some recent directly related experience: Without having been aware of that particular CIR, I recently wrapped up a LEED project with HVAC gas furnace
heating used only for morning warmup/preheat at the central AHU. The proposed system otherwise was effectively well-described by baseline system #6, with electric reheat accomplishing the vast majority of conditioned air heating (substantial heat recovery
was a part of this), so I used baseline system #6. The reviewer on first pass stated the baseline needed to be system #5 due to the presence of gas heating, and I composed a comment response substantiating why the electrical heating was the “predominant condition,”
referencing the corresponding subnote to Table G3.1.1A… Had I been aware of a CIR to the same effect I would have included a reference. The model has since been approved and all resubmitted credits have been awarded =).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I can’t guarantee your reviewer will consider the issue at hand in the same fashion, but in these sorts of cases applying an “all gas” baseline system against
a “99% electric” proposed system can make for a truly unfair comparison when the utility rates are quite different.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">For those not keeping score, I don’t use a term like “unfair” lightly or often. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">A completely literal reading of 90.1-2007 Table G3.1.1A may lead you to use system #5 over #6, and for that reason it’s not wrong to say that’s a “right” answer.
On the other hand a case can be made, particularly if you can demonstrate that the HW preconditioning is a small fraction of the total space heating energy, that the intent of the “predominant condition” subnote speaks directly to this instance and can present
another “right” answer. Without using a word like “unfair,” be prepared to intelligently discuss why system #6 is fundamentally a
<u>better</u> baseline for the purposes of establishing a performance rating against your proposed systems.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Finding and referencing that CIR Demba mentioned wouldn’t hurt either… =)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">~Nick<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">PS: On a related tangent… how do you guys find past CIR’s? I can only ever get so far using google – is there some kind of archive currently within LEED online
I’ve been missing?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><img border="0" width="119" height="37" id="Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:image001.jpg@01CBEAF8.4F632E00" alt="cid:489575314@22072009-0ABB"></span><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E"><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E"><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">NICK CATON, E.I.T.</span></b><b><span style="font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E"><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#CC9900">PROJECT ENGINEER<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">Smith & Boucher Engineers</span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;color:#CC9900"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">25501 west valley parkway<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">olathe ks 66061<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">direct 913 344.0036<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">fax 913 345.0617<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><a href="www.smithboucher.com" title="blocked::www.smithboucher.com"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">www.smithboucher.com</span></a></span><u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:blue">
</span></u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Will Mak<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, March 24, 2011 1:56 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Carol Gardner<br>
<b>Cc:</b> equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] electric heating issues<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Sorry, I thought I put down that the baseboard and VAV reheat coils were electrical, not hot water. The hot water is only for the preheat.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#C75B12">William Mak, LEED Green Associate</span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Mechanical Design Engineer</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><br>
</span><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#C75B12">EPSTEIN</span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Architecture<br>
Interiors<br>
Engineering<br>
Construction<br>
<br>
600 West Fulton Street<br>
Chicago, Illinois 60661-1259<br>
<br>
D: (312) 429-8116<br>
F: (312) 429-8800</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">E:</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#0070C0">
<a href="mailto:wmak@epsteinglobal.com">wmak@epsteinglobal.com</a></span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"><br>
W:</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#C75B12">
<a href="http://www.epsteinglobal.com/"><span style="color:#C75B12">www.epsteinglobal.com</span></a></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"><br>
<br>
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Webdings;color:#00B050">þ</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"> Epstein is a firm believer in sustainability. We ask that you please consider the environment before
printing this e-mail.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Carol Gardner [mailto:cmg750@gmail.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, March 24, 2011 1:41 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Will Mak<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Rob Hudson; equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] electric heating issues<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Hi Will,<br>
<br>
Sorry to say but I agree with Rob and Bill. If you are providing heated hot water to the baseboards then you are using a hybrid system. Maybe I am missing something, but it seems pretty clear.<br>
<br>
Carol<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 11:10 AM, Will Mak <<a href="mailto:wmak@epsteinglobal.com">wmak@epsteinglobal.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D">I thought the heating system only referred to the heating source itself? (not including preheat fuel source??)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="color:#C75B12">William Mak, LEED Green Associate</span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;color:#1F497D"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;color:black">Mechanical Design Engineer</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;color:black"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;color:#1F497D"><br>
</span><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#C75B12">EPSTEIN</span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;color:#1F497D"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;color:black">Architecture<br>
Interiors<br>
Engineering<br>
Construction<br>
<br>
600 West Fulton Street<br>
Chicago, Illinois 60661-1259<br>
<br>
D: <a href="tel:%28312%29%20429-8116" target="_blank">(312) 429-8116</a><br>
F: <a href="tel:%28312%29%20429-8800" target="_blank">(312) 429-8800</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;color:black">E:</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;color:#0070C0">
<a href="mailto:wmak@epsteinglobal.com" target="_blank">wmak@epsteinglobal.com</a></span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;color:black"><br>
W:</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;color:#C75B12"> <a href="http://www.epsteinglobal.com/" target="_blank">
<span style="color:#C75B12">www.epsteinglobal.com</span></a></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;color:black"><br>
<br>
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Webdings;color:#00B050">þ</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;color:black"> Epstein is a firm believer in sustainability. We ask that you please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> Rob Hudson [mailto:<a href="mailto:rdh4176@gmail.com" target="_blank">rdh4176@gmail.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, March 24, 2011 12:23 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Will Mak<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Bishop, Bill; <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">
equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] electric heating issues</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">as per the baseline system discussion, i would use System 5. If you read the 90.1 manual, it says if you use a fossil/electric hybrid heating system to implement System 5 in the
baseline.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Rob<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 12:14 PM, Will Mak <<a href="mailto:wmak@epsteinglobal.com" target="_blank">wmak@epsteinglobal.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D">See comments below, thanks!</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="color:#C75B12">William Mak, LEED Green Associate</span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;color:#1F497D"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;color:black">Mechanical Design Engineer</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;color:black"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;color:#1F497D"><br>
</span><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#C75B12">EPSTEIN</span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;color:#1F497D"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;color:black">Architecture<br>
Interiors<br>
Engineering<br>
Construction<br>
<br>
600 West Fulton Street<br>
Chicago, Illinois 60661-1259<br>
<br>
D: <a href="tel:%28312%29%20429-8116" target="_blank">(312) 429-8116</a><br>
F: <a href="tel:%28312%29%20429-8800" target="_blank">(312) 429-8800</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;color:black">E:</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;color:#0070C0">
<a href="mailto:wmak@epsteinglobal.com" target="_blank">wmak@epsteinglobal.com</a></span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;color:black"><br>
W:</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;color:#C75B12"> <a href="http://www.epsteinglobal.com/" target="_blank">
<span style="color:#C75B12">www.epsteinglobal.com</span></a></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;color:black"><br>
<br>
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Webdings;color:#00B050">þ</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;color:black"> Epstein is a firm believer in sustainability. We ask that you please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> Bishop, Bill [mailto:<a href="mailto:wbishop@pathfinder-ea.com" target="_blank">wbishop@pathfinder-ea.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, March 24, 2011 10:21 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Will Mak; <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">
equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Equest-users] electric heating issues</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:navy">Will,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:navy"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:navy">The first thing I would do is reconsider your selection of System 6 for the Baseline. Since you have gas boilers for preheat, I would choose
System 5. System 6 is all electric, but you say your baseline gas consumption is high, so you are currently modeling gas boiler(s) in the baseline. Unfortunately, if you go with System 5, your baseline reheat will be hot water which will save cost versus your
proposed design.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:red">Yes, I am modeling the gas boilers in the baseline purely for preheating. So you are saying that because I am modeling gas boilers (even
though they are just for preheat), I technically can run with System #5 for my baseline model?</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:navy"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:navy">Since both your baseboards and your reheat are electric in the proposed design, your high electric use is probably not a baseboard control
issue (provided you are not showing many unmet load hours). One thing to consider is your preheat leaving temperature – making it higher will favor the gas boilers and reduce the zone electric heating. I’m guessing that the requirement for identical preheat
coil control in G3.1.2.3 means that you use the same preheat leaving temperature in the baseline and proposed models.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:red">I currently have both models at minimum leaving temperatures for preheat of 60F (which is the design preheat leaving air temp). You would
think that because the preheat is pumping out 60F air to the VAV boxes, you would see similar zone heating requirements. However, the proposed design’s zone heating is much higher. Could it possibly be the parallel fan powered boxes that help the baseline
model that much?</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:navy">Make sure you are modeling your ventilation identically between the baseline and proposed models, unless you have DCV.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:red">Yup, I have the same OA cfms for both models</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:navy">Check your reports to make sure you don’t have a lot of simultaneous heating and cooling going on. Maybe you can increase the cooling supply
temperature (and convince the HVAC designer to do it) to the highest allowable temperature that meets cooling and dehumidification loads.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:red">Currently, I have the cooling supply temp at 52.5 F. This was because the design engineer wanted to take advantage of the efficiency
of the chillers on the project for cooling energy savings. Perhaps this could be the issue? The cooling temperature is too low that it triggers the reheat/baseboard to kick on all the time??</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:navy"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:navy">Your baseline may have similar, or even less, heating load depending on the proposed envelope, due to the reduced lighting load in the
proposed design. With electric baseboard and electric reheat, it will be difficult to show much heating savings unless you have a much better envelope or ventilation heat recovery. We should all be red-flagging electric reheat and baseboards whenever we see
them on projects.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:red">So you are saying that electric heat/reheat is bad for 90.1 PRM??</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:red"> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:red">Thanks for the response!</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:navy"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:navy">Regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:navy">Bill</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black">William Bishop, PE, BEMP, LEED<sup>®</sup> AP
</span></b><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#006600">|</span></b><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black"> Pathfinder Engineers & Architects LLP</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;color:black">Mechanical Engineer</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:5.0pt;color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b>Error! Filename not specified.</b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;color:navy">134 South Fitzhugh Street Rochester, NY 14608<br>
T: <a href="tel:%28585%29%20325-6004" target="_blank">(585) 325-6004</a> </span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;color:black">Ext. 114</span><span style="color:navy">
</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;color:navy">F: <a href="tel:%28585%29%20325-6005" target="_blank">
(585) 325-6005</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;color:black"><a href="mailto:wbishop@pathfinder-ea.com" target="_blank">wbishop@pathfinder-ea.com</a>
<a href="http://www.pathfinder-ea.com/" target="_blank">www.pathfinder-ea.com</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:Webdings;color:green">P</span><span style="color:green">
</span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;color:green">Sustainability – the forest AND the trees.</span><span style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:Webdings;color:green"> P
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt">
<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Will Mak<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, March 24, 2011 10:31 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Equest-users] electric heating issues</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">Hello all,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">I currently modeling a project for LEED NC v2009 submission for a corporate office building that’s roughly 125,000 SF. The proposed design’s primary
HVAC system are AHUs + VAVs w/Electric Reheat supplemented with electric baseboard along hot water preheat generated from gas boilers. This system also uses chilled water with very efficient chillers from a DES. The baseboard is suppose to take care of the
envelope loads and the VAV electric reheat coils will take care of the rest. Based on the size of the building, the baseline HVAC system shall be System #6: Packaged VAV with PFP Boxes.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">I’m pretty down the road on the models and for some reason cannot get savings between the 2 models. The heating energy use on electrical consumption
overrides any savings attributed from lighting, site lighting, cooling energy use, etc. Also, I know that in 90.1-2007, preheat must be model identical on the proposed and baseline models. I am having a hard time modeling both to be the same (inputs for preheat
capacity are the same but the energy use is different). The gas consumption is significantly higher on the baseline model.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">I double checked the loads from both models and the heating/cooling requirements are roughly the same so there’s nothing wrong with the building shell/internal
load inputs. Any guidance on how to reduce the consumption on the heating use for electrical consumption would be great! I am confused why the baseline model wouldn’t require similar, if not more, heating requirements and isn’t using more heating use for electrical
consumption. Also, guidance to ensure that the preheat is model identical would help too!</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">Thanks!</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">Cliffnotes:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">Proposed System: AHUs w/VAV Electric Reheat + Electric Baseboard//Chilled Water from DES//Hot Water Preheat</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">Baseline System: Packaged VAV with PFP Boxes</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">Issue #1: Heating electrical consumption is super high on proposed model despite similar loads for both models.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">Issue #2: Preheat is not being model identical as required from 90.1-2007. Capacity and design inputs are same for building but baseline building
is using significantly more gas.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="color:#C75B12">William Mak, LEED Green Associate</span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;color:#1F497D"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;color:black">Mechanical Design Engineer</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;color:black"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;color:#1F497D"><br>
</span><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#C75B12">EPSTEIN</span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;color:#1F497D"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;color:black">Architecture<br>
Interiors<br>
Engineering<br>
Construction<br>
<br>
600 West Fulton Street<br>
Chicago, Illinois 60661-1259<br>
<br>
D: <a href="tel:%28312%29%20429-8116" target="_blank">(312) 429-8116</a><br>
F: <a href="tel:%28312%29%20429-8800" target="_blank">(312) 429-8800</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;color:black">E:</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;color:#0070C0">
<a href="mailto:wmak@epsteinglobal.com" target="_blank">wmak@epsteinglobal.com</a></span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;color:black"><br>
W:</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;color:#C75B12"> <a href="http://www.epsteinglobal.com/" target="_blank">
<span style="color:#C75B12">www.epsteinglobal.com</span></a></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;color:black"><br>
<br>
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Webdings;color:#00B050">þ</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;color:black"> Epstein is a firm believer in sustainability. We ask that you please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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