<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">ASHRAE 62.1 - 2010, Sec. 6.2.6.1 (Variable
Load Conditions) wording on Occupied concurs with previous versions of
62.1. However, a space may temporarily be unoccupied for whatever
period of time does not negate the responsibility to maintain Indoor Air
Quality as Per Section 6.3. </font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
<br>
<br>
Michael Hupel<br>
Project & Business Development<br>
Johnson Controls L. P.<br>
3070 Mainway Drive <br>
Burlington, ON L7N 3X1<br>
(905) 335-3325 ext. 237<br>
(905) 730-9642 cell</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="sans-serif">From:</font>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">"Nick Caton" <ncaton@smithboucher.com></font>
<tr valign=top>
<td><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="sans-serif">To:</font>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">"Paul Diglio" <paul.diglio@sbcglobal.net>,
"Jeremy Poling" <Jeremy.Poling@transwestern.net>, "Charles
Welch" <cwelch@capitalreviewgroup.com>, <equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org></font>
<tr valign=top>
<td><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="sans-serif">Date:</font>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">03/14/2011 01:19 PM</font>
<tr valign=top>
<td><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="sans-serif">Subject:</font>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Re: [Equest-users] ASHRAE 62.1 Unoccupied
Vnetilation</font></table>
<br>
<hr noshade>
<br>
<br>
<br><font size=2 color=#004080 face="Calibri">In agreement and in extension
of Jeremy/Paul’s thoughts:</font>
<br><font size=2 color=#004080 face="Calibri"> </font>
<br><font size=2 color=#004080 face="Calibri">62.1-2007 and 2004 define
a “breathing zone” as “the region <u>in an occupied space</u>…” in
the glossary. </font>
<br><font size=2 color=#004080 face="Calibri"> </font>
<br><font size=2 color=#004080 face="Calibri">Once a space is unoccupied,
it ceases to have a breathing zone. When there’s no breathing zone,
per 6.2.6.1, there’s little to discuss ;).</font>
<br><font size=2 color=#004080 face="Calibri"> </font>
<br><font size=2 color=#004080 face="Calibri"><u>Do</u> provide ventilation
for off-gassing. Another good example from my short experience has
been tire storage.</font>
<br><font size=2 color=#004080 face="Calibri"> </font>
<br><font size=2 color=#004080 face="Calibri">~Nick</font>
<br><img src=cid:_2_08055AC0080531100062395E85257853 alt="cid:489575314@22072009-0ABB">
<br><font size=2 color=#37605e face="Stylus BT"><b> </b></font>
<br><font size=2 color=#37605e face="Stylus BT"><b>NICK CATON, E.I.T.</b></font>
<br><font size=1 color=#bfbf00 face="Calibri">PROJECT ENGINEER</font>
<br><font size=2 color=#37605e face="Calibri">Smith & Boucher Engineers</font>
<br><font size=2 color=#37605e face="Calibri">25501 west valley parkway</font>
<br><font size=2 color=#37605e face="Calibri">olathe ks 66061</font>
<br><font size=2 color=#37605e face="Calibri">direct 913 344.0036</font>
<br><font size=2 color=#37605e face="Calibri">fax 913 345.0617</font>
<br><a href=www.smithboucher.com><font size=2 color=blue face="Calibri"><u>www.smithboucher.com</u></font></a><font size=2 color=blue face="Calibri"><u>
</u></font>
<br><font size=2 color=#004080 face="Calibri"> </font>
<br><font size=2 face="Tahoma"><b>From:</b> equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[</font><a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org"><font size=2 face="Tahoma">mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</font></a><font size=2 face="Tahoma">]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Paul Diglio<b><br>
Sent:</b> Monday, March 14, 2011 8:19 AM<b><br>
To:</b> Jeremy Poling; Charles Welch; equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<b><br>
Subject:</b> [Equest-users] ASHRAE 62.1 Unoccupied Vnetilation</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<br><font size=2 face="Times New Roman">Jeremy:<br>
<br>
I don't see anything in 62.1 that implies ventilation is required during
the unoccupied mode.<br>
<br>
I agree that there are off-gassing considerations to be taken into account.
62.1-2004 had a section that stated, in so many words, that if there
was an accumulation of contaminants during the unoccupied period, the fans
shall be started before occupancy to purge the contaminants. I did
not see this in 62.1-2007, but I do not have a searchable copy, just a
cut & paste from Real-Read.<br>
<br>
Some designers specify a night purge mode to clear the air after the cleaning
crew has left the building in order to purge the air of the cleaning solution
odors.<br>
<br>
62.1-2007, section 6.2.6.1 states that the "Ventilation systems shall
be designed to be capable of providing the required ventilation rates in
the breathing zone whenever the zones served by the system are occupied".
I take the "required ventilation rates" to mean those defined
in Table 6.1 which is where the CFM per person and the CFM/Ft2 is defined.<br>
<br>
I would be interested if anyone else on the forum shares your interpretation.<br>
<br>
Paul Diglio<br>
<br>
<br>
</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<div align=center>
<br>
<hr></div>
<br><font size=2 face="Tahoma"><b>From:</b> Jeremy Poling <Jeremy.Poling@transwestern.net><b><br>
To:</b> Paul Diglio <paul.diglio@sbcglobal.net>; Charles Welch <cwelch@capitalreviewgroup.com>;
equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<b><br>
Sent:</b> Mon, March 14, 2011 12:40:06 AM<b><br>
Subject:</b> RE: [Equest-users] EMS Control System Modeling</font>
<br><font size=2 color=#004080 face="Arial">Paul,</font>
<br><font size=2 color=#004080 face="Arial"> </font>
<br><font size=2 color=#004080 face="Arial">I just have a literal viewpoint
– I think it is more me identifying a problem with equivalence in the
codes: 90.1 allows cycling of fans during unoccupied hours but I haven’t
seen anything in 62.1 that says you can turn off the area-based component
of the ventilation calculation. I’m in the position most of the
time of either modeling someone else’s design or reviewing a model built
by someone else so this usually becomes a discussion I have if the model
is attempting to take credit for DCV strategies. I mean, it is very
literal, but the basic VRP equation is Ra*Az + Rp*Pz=Vbz and the only thing
that changes over the short-term is Pz, right? The 62.1-2007 User’s
Manual on page A-6 points to Section 5.4 and Section 6.2.6.1 that state
that ventilation is required whenever zones are occupied. That said,
on page 6-2 the User’s Manual describes the two components of the VRP
the way I mentioned earlier: one for the “occupant-related component”
and the other for the “building area-based component” that is described
as “The building area-based component is intended to dilute sensory contaminants
emitting from materials and furnishings within the space, and from non-occupant
activities and processes taking place within the space.” From my
reading, this agrees that there are sources of IAQ contamination that originate
from the building itself that have nothing to do with the occupancy of
the building. Since the building is present 24/7 it would make sense
that it is generating IAQ contaminants 24/7 and therefore, those contaminants
need dilution over that time. So the math says the answer to the
equation cannot be 0, but in reality this will represent an energy penalty
in most climate zones for a large portion of the year.</font>
<br><font size=2 color=#004080 face="Arial"> </font>
<br><font size=2 color=#004080 face="Arial">Thoughts? I’m definitely
okay being proven wrong here, but I haven’t found anything in the text
of the standard that overtly confirms that no outdoor airflow should be
provided during unoccupied times.</font>
<br><font size=2 color=#004080 face="Arial"> </font>
<br><font size=1 color=#004080 face="Arial"><b>Jeremy R. Poling, PE, LEED
AP+BDC</b></font><font size=2 color=#004080 face="Arial"><br>
</font>
<br><font size=2 color=#004080 face="Arial"> </font>
<br><font size=2 face="Arial"><b>From:</b> Paul Diglio [</font><a href=mailto:paul.diglio@sbcglobal.net><font size=2 face="Arial">mailto:paul.diglio@sbcglobal.net</font></a><font size=2 face="Arial">]
<b><br>
Sent:</b> Friday, March 11, 2011 7:13 PM<b><br>
To:</b> Jeremy Poling; Charles Welch; equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<b><br>
Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] EMS Control System Modeling</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<br><font size=2 face="Times New Roman">Jeremy:<br>
<br>
Are you saying that one needs to provide the Az amount of ventilation air
during unoccupied hours? So you model the fans to run 24 X 7 to provide
ventilation?</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><br>
Paul Diglio</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<div align=center>
<br>
<hr></div>
<br><font size=2 face="Arial"><b>From:</b> Jeremy Poling <Jeremy.Poling@transwestern.net><b><br>
To:</b> Charles Welch <cwelch@capitalreviewgroup.com>; equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<b><br>
Sent:</b> Fri, March 11, 2011 3:03:34 PM<b><br>
Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] EMS Control System Modeling</font>
<br><font size=2 color=#004080 face="Arial">Charles,</font>
<br><font size=2 color=#004080 face="Arial"> </font>
<br><font size=2 color=#004080 face="Arial">One more thought for your consideration:
since the DCV is based on occupancy, the occupancy schedule is also going
to drive it in reality and in the model (as you’re aware – just stating
for the record). Because of that, the hourly people-schedule is going
to drive the results given by the model. It may make sense to go
through and look at that schedule in detail to be certain it reflects your
best understanding of how the spaces will be occupied. Following
on that thought, a very real example of where DCV can save energy is going
to be after hours or during non-peak occupancy times (for the large conference
room spaces, etc.). ASHRAE 62.1-2007 Section 6.2.6 and Section 6.2.7
both will tell you how low your minimum ventilation rate can go during
the unoccupied period.</font>
<br><font size=2 color=#004080 face="Arial"> </font>
<br><font size=2 color=#004080 face="Arial">A note for everyone who reads
this: I’ve been told I take a very literal read of the code so this may
not agree with your understanding of it, but in my literal view I see Section
6.2.7 allowing you to reduce the value of Pz in your VRP calculations to
0 during unoccupied times but since Az remains fixed you are not allowed
to reduce the outdoor air down to 0 during unoccupied times. Explanatory
material behind the development of the current procedures in the standard
explains that the VRP calculation has two components: one to deal with
IAQ associated with people-generated contaminants and one for building-generated
contaminants. Regardless of your view on that, you should be able
to arrive at a minimum OA number that is LESS than the amount specified
using peak occupancy or time-averaged occupancy (per 6.2.6).</font>
<br><font size=2 color=#004080 face="Arial"> </font>
<br><font size=2 color=#004080 face="Arial">So – in summary: I would double
check your occupancy schedule to make sure it reflects what you are expecting
to see in the building and then double check your minimum OA setting to
make sure it will allow the system to reduce OA when occupancy drops. Also,
one possible “exaggeration” may be viewing it from a system energy perspective
or a whole building perspective: if I leave one zone and go to another
and both zones have DCV, then the one I left will reduce OA and the one
I entered will increase OA but the net effect should be to balance each
other out (oversimplified, but the concept is what I was going for not
the math). So when you look at building-level energy consumption
for the ventilation system the individual unit savings will wash out. The
only savings you’ll see are when people leave the building altogether.</font>
<br><font size=2 color=#004080 face="Arial"> </font>
<br><font size=1 color=#004080 face="Arial"><b>Jeremy R. Poling, PE, LEED
AP+BDC</b><br>
Manager | Sustainability Services</font>
<br><font size=1 color=#004080 face="Arial">TRANSWESTERN</font>
<br><font size=1 color=#004080 face="Arial">234 W. Florida St.</font>
<br><font size=1 color=#004080 face="Arial">Milwaukee, WI 53204</font>
<br><font size=1 color=#004080 face="Arial"><br>
Phone 414.255.3322 | Fax 414.224.7780 | Mobile 414.426.7273</font>
<br><a href=mailto:Jeremy.Poling@Transwestern.net target=_blank><font size=1 color=blue face="Arial"><u>Jeremy.Poling@Transwestern.net</u></font></a>
<br><a href="http://www.transwestern.net/Energy-Sustainability.asp" target=_blank><font size=1 color=blue face="Arial"><u>http://www.transwestern.net/Energy-Sustainability.asp</u></font></a>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font>
<br><img src=cid:_1_0806309408062C440062395E85257853 alt=http://www.transwestern.net/TWGreen.gif>
<br><font size=3 color=#004080 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<br><font size=2 color=#004080 face="Arial"> </font>
<br><font size=2 color=#004080 face="Arial"> </font>
<br><font size=2 face="Arial"><b>From:</b> equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[</font><a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org"><font size=2 face="Arial">mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</font></a><font size=2 face="Arial">]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Charles Welch<b><br>
Sent:</b> Friday, March 11, 2011 1:14 PM<b><br>
To:</b> equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<b><br>
Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] EMS Control System Modeling</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<br><font size=2 face="Arial">Thank you very much to those who helped me
out with this... Finally made some good headway.</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<br><font size=2 face="Arial">Quick question....</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<br><font size=2 face="Arial">Modeling the DCV for my location (AZ) I shows
only a very small improvement in energy consumption for my HVAC, does this
sound correct?</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Arial">I have always been "led to believe"
by the local control companies that DCV is a huge improvement?</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Arial">Myth, sales "exaggeration", or
have some of them found a way to control the DCV in a manner that I am
not modeling correctly? </font>
<br><font size=2 face="Arial">Opinions or pointers appreciated.</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">----- Original Message ----- </font>
<br><font size=2 face="Arial"><b>From:</b> </font><a href=mailto:kwalkerman@gmail.com target=_blank><font size=2 color=blue face="Arial"><u>Karen
Walkerman</u></font></a><font size=2 face="Arial"> </font>
<br><font size=2 face="Arial"><b>To:</b> </font><a href=mailto:MatthewRLarson@eaton.com target=_blank><font size=2 color=blue face="Arial"><u>MatthewRLarson@eaton.com</u></font></a><font size=2 face="Arial">
</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Arial"><b>Cc:</b> </font><a href=mailto:GCollins@glumac.com target=_blank><font size=2 color=blue face="Arial"><u>GCollins@glumac.com</u></font></a><font size=2 face="Arial">
; </font><a href=mailto:cwelch@capitalreviewgroup.com target=_blank><font size=2 color=blue face="Arial"><u>cwelch@capitalreviewgroup.com</u></font></a><font size=2 face="Arial">
; </font><a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target=_blank><font size=2 color=blue face="Arial"><u>equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</u></font></a><font size=2 face="Arial">
</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Arial"><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 09, 2011 2:48
PM</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] EMS Control
System Modeling</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">Regarding DCV there are a few things
to know:</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">1. demand is based on the
number of people in the space and the outdoor air per person specified
at the zone level. If your outdoor air rate is not entered as a per
person air rate, then DCV will not work properly</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">2. If your fans are not constant
volume, ie they can cycle or they are variable speed, then you need to
make sure that the proper ventilation air is supplied in your base case.
Usually, I set the fan flow to 'variable'. If, in reality,
the fans cycle on and off, I change the fan curve to linear. Then,
i set the minimum flow to be equal to the outdoor air rate fraction. Otherwise,
implementing DCV can actually RAISE energy.</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">On Wed, Mar 9, 2011 at 10:59 AM,
<</font><a href=mailto:MatthewRLarson@eaton.com target=_blank><font size=3 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><u>MatthewRLarson@eaton.com</u></font></a><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">>
wrote:</font>
<br><font size=2 color=#004080 face="Times New Roman">Charles,</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<br><font size=2 color=#004080 face="Times New Roman">Regarding the DCV,
you need to specify the “Minimum OA Control Method” under the Outdoor
Air tab for the system to state whether the CO2 sensor is in the return
or in the space. Then at the zone level, specify the “Minimum Flow
Control” under the Air Flow tab to state if the minimum OA resets up or
down depending on occupancy level. To ensure the amount of OA going
into a space doesn’t go below the ASHRAE 62.1 minimum, I always input
the OA Flow per Person and/or Flow per Area at the zone level as well.
DCV has always been something I’ve been a little dicey about so
any additional suggestions/comments would be great.</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<br><font size=2 color=#004080 face="Times New Roman">Thanks,</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<br><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><b>Matthew Larson, LEED AP BD+C</b><br>
Project Engineer</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Times New Roman">Energy Solutions Group</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Times New Roman">E M C Engineers, Inc.<br>
Eaton’s Electrical Services & Systems <br>
143 Union Blvd, Suite 350<br>
Lakewood, CO 80228<br>
tel: +1 303 328-3419<br>
mobile: +1 303 668-2511<br>
fax: +1 303 974-1239</font>
<br><a href=mailto:MatthewRLarson@Eaton.com target=_blank><font size=2 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><u>MatthewRLarson@Eaton.com</u></font></a><font size=2 face="Times New Roman">
</font><font size=2 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><u><br>
</u></font><a href=http://www.eaton.com/energysolutions target=_blank><font size=2 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><u>www.eaton.com/energysolutions</u></font></a><font size=2 face="Times New Roman">
</font>
<br><font size=2 color=#004080 face="Times New Roman"><b>Error! Filename
not specified.</b></font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<br><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><b>From:</b> </font><a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target=_blank><font size=2 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><u>equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</u></font></a><font size=2 face="Times New Roman">
[mailto:</font><a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target=_blank><font size=2 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><u>equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</u></font></a><font size=2 face="Times New Roman">]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Greg Collins<b><br>
Sent:</b> Tuesday, March 08, 2011 5:53 PM<b><br>
To:</b> Charles Welch; </font><a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target=_blank><font size=2 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><u>equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</u></font></a><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><b><br>
Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] EMS Control System Modeling</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<br><font size=2 color=#004080 face="Times New Roman">Charles - A quick
suggestion for the setback is to try setting your system fans to "cycle
on any." Otherwise, your system might not kick on to maintain
setback temperatures. </font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<br><font size=2 color=#004080 face="Times New Roman"><b>Greg Collins</b><br>
GLUMAC | (949) 833-8190</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<br><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><b>From:</b> Charles Welch [mailto:</font><a href=mailto:cwelch@capitalreviewgroup.com target=_blank><font size=2 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><u>cwelch@capitalreviewgroup.com</u></font></a><font size=2 face="Times New Roman">]
<b><br>
Sent:</b> Tuesday, March 08, 2011 4:24 PM<b><br>
To:</b> </font><a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target=_blank><font size=2 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><u>equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</u></font></a><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><b><br>
Subject:</b> [Equest-users] EMS Control System Modeling</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<br><font size=2 face="Times New Roman">I am doing an quick estimate for
adding EMS control to an existing HVAC system (schools) which incorporate
the following measures</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<br><font size=2 face="Times New Roman">1) Automatic thermostat
setbacks for building occupation</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Times New Roman">2) Demand controlled
ventilation</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Times New Roman">3) Economizers</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<br><font size=2 face="Times New Roman">Here are my "challenges"<br>
1) Simulation with setback temperatures shows no reduction
in energy</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Times New Roman">2) I am unsure how
to handle DCV</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Times New Roman">3) Simulation with
economizers show very little reduction</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<br><font size=2 face="Times New Roman">I would appreciate any pointers,
suggestions, etc. on what to do here.</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Times New Roman">I would especially appreciate any
example files to see how you input the data to get proper results.</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<br><font size=2 face="Times New Roman">Thanks in advance for any help.</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
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