<html><head><style type="text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></head><body><div style="font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:10pt">I never heard of DCV implemented with cycling fans. Per 90.1 and our CT State Code the fan needs to run continuously when the space is occupied. Most codes require compliance with 90.1 whether we are modeling to that standard or not.<br><br>How can you provide the necessary ventilation air if you do not know how long the fan will run each hour? Do you model the fan to run 3 times per hour and bring in additional ventilation air so that the hourly average meets 62.1 standards?<br><br>My experience is with modeling DCV in both eQuest and using exceptional calculations via Excel. I have verified the energy savings after the DCV measure has been installed. You might expect a 6-8% savings in cooling and heating energy attributed to the air handling units that have
implemented this measure. Often the simple payback is over 5 years because DDC CO2 sensors are expensive. Of course, it depends on the unit size and the occupancy load.<br><br>Paul Diglio<br><div><br></div><div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 10pt;"><br><div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><hr size="1"><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> Charles Welch <cwelch@capitalreviewgroup.com><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Fri, March 11, 2011 2:14:17 PM<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Equest-users] EMS Control System Modeling<br></font><br>
<style></style>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Thank you very much to those who helped me out with
this... Finally made some good headway.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Quick question....</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Modeling the DCV for my location (AZ) I shows only
a very small improvement in energy consumption for my HVAC, does this sound
correct?</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">I have always been "led to believe" by the local
control companies that DCV is a huge improvement?</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Myth, sales "exaggeration", or have some of them
found a way to control the DCV in a manner that I am not modeling correctly?
</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Opinions or pointers appreciated.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div>----- Original Message ----- </div>
<blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 0); padding-left: 5px; padding-right: 0px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px;">
<div style="font: 10pt arial; background: none repeat scroll 0% 0% rgb(228, 228, 228);"><b>From:</b>
<a rel="nofollow" title="kwalkerman@gmail.com" ymailto="mailto:kwalkerman@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:kwalkerman@gmail.com">Karen
Walkerman</a> </div>
<div style="font: 10pt arial;"><b>To:</b> <a rel="nofollow" title="MatthewRLarson@eaton.com" ymailto="mailto:MatthewRLarson@eaton.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:MatthewRLarson@eaton.com">MatthewRLarson@eaton.com</a> </div>
<div style="font: 10pt arial;"><b>Cc:</b> <a rel="nofollow" title="GCollins@glumac.com" ymailto="mailto:GCollins@glumac.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:GCollins@glumac.com">GCollins@glumac.com</a> ; <a rel="nofollow" title="cwelch@capitalreviewgroup.com" ymailto="mailto:cwelch@capitalreviewgroup.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:cwelch@capitalreviewgroup.com">cwelch@capitalreviewgroup.com</a>
; <a rel="nofollow" title="equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" ymailto="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
</div>
<div style="font: 10pt arial;"><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 09, 2011 2:48
PM</div>
<div style="font: 10pt arial;"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] EMS Control
System Modeling</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Regarding DCV there are a few things to know:<br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div>1. demand is based on the number of people in the space and the
outdoor air per person specified at the zone level. If your outdoor air
rate is not entered as a per person air rate, then DCV will not work
properly</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>2. If your fans are not constant volume, ie they can cycle or they
are variable speed, then you need to make sure that the proper ventilation air
is supplied in your base case. Usually, I set the fan flow to
'variable'. If, in reality, the fans cycle on and off, I change the fan
curve to linear. Then, i set the minimum flow to be equal to the outdoor
air rate fraction. Otherwise, implementing DCV can actually RAISE
energy.</div><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Mar 9, 2011 at 10:59 AM, <span dir="ltr"><<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:MatthewRLarson@eaton.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:MatthewRLarson@eaton.com">MatthewRLarson@eaton.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;" class="gmail_quote">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-size: 11pt;">Charles,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-size: 11pt;"></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-size: 11pt;">Regarding
the DCV, you need to specify the “Minimum OA Control Method” under the
Outdoor Air tab for the system to state whether the CO2 sensor is in the
return or in the space. Then at the zone level, specify the “Minimum
Flow Control” under the Air Flow tab to state if the minimum OA resets up or
down depending on occupancy level. To ensure the amount of OA going
into a space doesn’t go below the ASHRAE 62.1 minimum, I always input the OA
Flow per Person and/or Flow per Area at the zone level as well. DCV
has always been something I’ve been a little dicey about so any additional
suggestions/comments would be great.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-size: 11pt;"></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-size: 11pt;">Thanks,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-size: 11pt;"></span> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="color: black; font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-GB">Matthew Larson, LEED AP BD+C<br></span></b><span style="color: black; font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-GB">Project Engineer</span></p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black; font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-GB">Energy Solutions
Group</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black; font-size: 10pt;">E M C
Engineers, Inc.<br>Eaton’s Electrical Services & Systems <br>143 Union
Blvd, Suite 350<br>Lakewood, CO 80228<br>tel: +1 303
328-3419<br>mobile: +1 303 668-2511<br>fax: +1 303 974-1239</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black; font-size: 10pt;"><a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:MatthewRLarson@Eaton.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:MatthewRLarson@Eaton.com">MatthewRLarson@Eaton.com</a> <br><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.eaton.com/energysolutions">www.eaton.com/energysolutions</a> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-size: 11pt;"><img alt="image001" border="0" width="198" height="101"></span></p></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-size: 11pt;"></span> </p>
<div>
<div style="border-width: 1pt medium medium; border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> <a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [mailto:<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf
Of </b>Greg Collins<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, March 08, 2011 5:53
PM<br><b>To:</b> Charles Welch; <a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re:
[Equest-users] EMS Control System Modeling</span></p></div></div>
<div>
<div class="h5">
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-size: 11pt;">Charles - A
quick suggestion for the setback is to try setting your system fans to
"cycle on any." Otherwise, your system might not kick on to maintain
setback temperatures. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-size: 11pt;"></span> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-size: 10pt;">Greg
Collins</span></b><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><br></span><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-size: 10pt;">GLUMAC | (949)
833-8190</span></p></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-size: 11pt;"></span> </p>
<div>
<div style="border-width: 1pt medium medium; border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> Charles Welch [mailto:<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:cwelch@capitalreviewgroup.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:cwelch@capitalreviewgroup.com">cwelch@capitalreviewgroup.com</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday,
March 08, 2011 4:24 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b>
[Equest-users] EMS Control System Modeling</span></p></div></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">I am doing an quick
estimate for adding EMS control to an existing HVAC system (schools) which
incorporate the following measures</span></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">1)
Automatic thermostat setbacks for building occupation</span></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">2) Demand
controlled ventilation</span></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">3)
Economizers</span></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Here are my
"challenges"<br>1) Simulation with setback temperatures
shows no reduction in energy</span></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">2) I am
unsure how to handle DCV</span></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">3)
Simulation with economizers show very little reduction</span></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">I would appreciate any
pointers, suggestions, etc. on what to do here.</span></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">I would especially
appreciate any example files to see how you input the data to get proper
results.</span></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Thanks in advance for any
help.</span></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div></div></div></div></div></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>Equest-users
mailing list<br><span><a target="_blank" href="http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org">http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org</a></span><br>To
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