<html><head><style type="text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></head><body><div style="font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:10pt">Jeremy:<br><br>Are you saying that one needs to provide the Az amount of ventilation air during unoccupied hours? So you model the fans to run 24 X 7 to provide ventilation?<br><div><br>Paul Diglio<br></div><div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 10pt;"><br><div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><hr size="1"><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> Jeremy Poling <Jeremy.Poling@transwestern.net><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> Charles Welch <cwelch@capitalreviewgroup.com>; equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Fri, March 11, 2011 3:03:34 PM<br><b><span style="font-weight:
bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Equest-users] EMS Control System Modeling<br></font><br>
<style><!--
_filtered {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
_filtered {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
_filtered {font-family:Verdana;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"serif";}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}
span.EmailStyle17
{font-family:"sans-serif";color:#1F497D;}
.MsoChpDefault
{font-size:10.0pt;}
_filtered {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}
div.WordSection1
{}
--></style><div class="WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Charles,</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">One more thought for your consideration: since the DCV is based on occupancy, the occupancy schedule is also going to drive it in reality and in the model (as you’re aware – just stating for the record). Because of that, the hourly people-schedule is going to drive the results given by the model. It may make sense to go through and look at that schedule in detail to be certain it reflects your best understanding of how the spaces will be occupied. Following on that thought, a very real example of where DCV can save energy is
going to be after hours or during non-peak occupancy times (for the large conference room spaces, etc.). ASHRAE 62.1-2007 Section 6.2.6 and Section 6.2.7 both will tell you how low your minimum ventilation rate can go during the unoccupied period.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">A note for everyone who reads this: I’ve been told I take a very literal read of the code so this may not agree with your understanding of it, but in my literal view I see Section 6.2.7 allowing you to reduce the value of Pz in your VRP calculations to 0 during unoccupied times but since Az remains fixed you are not allowed to reduce the outdoor air down to 0 during unoccupied times. Explanatory material behind the development of the current
procedures in the standard explains that the VRP calculation has two components: one to deal with IAQ associated with people-generated contaminants and one for building-generated contaminants. Regardless of your view on that, you should be able to arrive at a minimum OA number that is LESS than the amount specified using peak occupancy or time-averaged occupancy (per 6.2.6).</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">So – in summary: I would double check your occupancy schedule to make sure it reflects what you are expecting to see in the building and then double check your minimum OA setting to make sure it will allow the system to reduce OA when occupancy drops. Also, one possible “exaggeration” may be viewing it from a
system energy perspective or a whole building perspective: if I leave one zone and go to another and both zones have DCV, then the one I left will reduce OA and the one I entered will increase OA but the net effect should be to balance each other out (oversimplified, but the concept is what I was going for not the math). So when you look at building-level energy consumption for the ventilation system the individual unit savings will wash out. The only savings you’ll see are when people leave the building altogether.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 7.5pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Jeremy R. Poling, PE, LEED AP+BDC</span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><br></span><span
style="font-size: 7.5pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Manager | Sustainability Services</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><br><br></span><span style="font-size: 7.5pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 7.5pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">TRANSWESTERN</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 7.5pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">234 W. Florida St.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 7.5pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Milwaukee, WI 53204</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><br></span><span style="font-size: 7.5pt; font-family: "sans-serif";
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Phone 414.255.3322 | Fax 414.224.7780 | Mobile 414.426.7273</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 7.5pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:Jeremy.Poling@Transwestern.net" target="_blank" href="mailto:Jeremy.Poling@Transwestern.net">Jeremy.Poling@Transwestern.net</a></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 7.5pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><span><a target="_blank" href="http://www.transwestern.net/Energy-Sustainability.asp">http://www.transwestern.net/Energy-Sustainability.asp</a></span></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><br></span><img src="cid:1.3177464259@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com" alt="http://www.transwestern.net/TWGreen.gif" align="left" width="437" height="79"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p><div><div style="border-width: 1pt medium medium; border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "sans-serif";">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "sans-serif";"> equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Charles Welch<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, March 11, 2011 1:14 PM<br><b>To:</b>
equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] EMS Control System Modeling</span></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "sans-serif";">Thank you very much to those who helped me out with this... Finally made some good headway.</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "sans-serif";">Quick question....</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "sans-serif";">Modeling the DCV for my location (AZ) I shows only a very small improvement in energy consumption for my HVAC, does this sound correct?</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "sans-serif";">I have always been "led to believe" by the local control
companies that DCV is a huge improvement?</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "sans-serif";">Myth, sales "exaggeration", or have some of them found a way to control the DCV in a manner that I am not modeling correctly? </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "sans-serif";">Opinions or pointers appreciated.</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">----- Original Message ----- </p></div><blockquote style="border-width: medium medium medium 1.5pt; border-style: none none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color black; padding: 0in 0in 0in 4pt; margin: 5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt;"><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background: none repeat scroll 0% 0% rgb(228, 228, 228);"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "sans-serif";">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "sans-serif";"> <a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:kwalkerman@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:kwalkerman@gmail.com" title="kwalkerman@gmail.com">Karen Walkerman</a> </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "sans-serif";">To:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "sans-serif";"> <a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:MatthewRLarson@eaton.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:MatthewRLarson@eaton.com" title="MatthewRLarson@eaton.com">MatthewRLarson@eaton.com</a> </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "sans-serif";">Cc:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "sans-serif";"> <a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:GCollins@glumac.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:GCollins@glumac.com" title="GCollins@glumac.com">GCollins@glumac.com</a> ; <a rel="nofollow"
ymailto="mailto:cwelch@capitalreviewgroup.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:cwelch@capitalreviewgroup.com" title="cwelch@capitalreviewgroup.com">cwelch@capitalreviewgroup.com</a> ; <a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" title="equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a> </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "sans-serif";">Sent:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "sans-serif";"> Wednesday, March 09, 2011 2:48 PM</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "sans-serif";">Subject:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "sans-serif";"> Re: [Equest-users] EMS Control System Modeling</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p
class="MsoNormal">Regarding DCV there are a few things to know:</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">1. demand is based on the number of people in the space and the outdoor air per person specified at the zone level. If your outdoor air rate is not entered as a per person air rate, then DCV will not work properly</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">2. If your fans are not constant volume, ie they can cycle or they are variable speed, then you need to make sure that the proper ventilation air is supplied in your base case. Usually, I set the fan flow to 'variable'. If, in reality, the fans cycle on and off, I change the fan curve to linear. Then, i set the minimum flow to be equal to the outdoor air rate fraction. Otherwise, implementing DCV can actually RAISE energy.</p></div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><div><p
class="MsoNormal">On Wed, Mar 9, 2011 at 10:59 AM, <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:MatthewRLarson@eaton.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:MatthewRLarson@eaton.com">MatthewRLarson@eaton.com</a>> wrote:</p><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Charles,</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style=""> </p><p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Regarding the DCV, you need to specify the “Minimum OA Control Method” under the Outdoor Air tab for the system to state whether the CO2 sensor is in the return or in the space. Then at the zone level, specify the “Minimum Flow Control” under the Air Flow tab to state if the minimum OA resets up or down depending on occupancy level. To ensure the amount of OA going into a space doesn’t go below the ASHRAE 62.1 minimum, I always input the OA Flow per Person and/or Flow per Area at
the zone level as well. DCV has always been something I’ve been a little dicey about so any additional suggestions/comments would be great.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style=""> </p><p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Thanks,</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style=""> </p><div><p class="MsoNormal" style=""><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;" lang="EN-GB">Matthew Larson, LEED AP BD+C<br></span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;" lang="EN-GB">Project Engineer</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;" lang="EN-GB">Energy Solutions Group</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;">E M C Engineers, Inc.<br>Eaton’s Electrical Services & Systems <br>143 Union Blvd, Suite 350<br>Lakewood, CO 80228<br>tel: +1 303 328-3419<br>mobile: +1 303
668-2511<br>fax: +1 303 974-1239</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;"><a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:MatthewRLarson@Eaton.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:MatthewRLarson@Eaton.com">MatthewRLarson@Eaton.com</a> <br><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.eaton.com/energysolutions">www.eaton.com/energysolutions</a> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><b>Error! Filename not specified.</b></span></p></div><p class="MsoNormal" style=""> </p><div><div style="border-width: 1pt medium medium; border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;"><p class="MsoNormal" style=""><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> <a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank"
href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [mailto:<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Greg Collins<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, March 08, 2011 5:53 PM<br><b>To:</b> Charles Welch; <a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] EMS Control System Modeling</span></p></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style=""> </p><p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Charles - A quick suggestion for the setback is to try setting your system fans to "cycle on any." Otherwise, your system might not kick on to
maintain setback temperatures. </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style=""> </p><div><p class="MsoNormal" style=""><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Greg Collins</span></b><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><br></span><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">GLUMAC | (949) 833-8190</span></p></div><p class="MsoNormal" style=""> </p><div><div style="border-width: 1pt medium medium; border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;"><p class="MsoNormal" style=""><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> Charles Welch [mailto:<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:cwelch@capitalreviewgroup.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:cwelch@capitalreviewgroup.com">cwelch@capitalreviewgroup.com</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, March 08, 2011 4:24 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a rel="nofollow"
ymailto="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> [Equest-users] EMS Control System Modeling</span></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal" style=""> </p><div><p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;">I am doing an quick estimate for adding EMS control to an existing HVAC system (schools) which incorporate the following measures</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style=""> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;">1) Automatic thermostat setbacks for building occupation</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;">2) Demand controlled ventilation</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;">3) Economizers</span></p></div><div><p
class="MsoNormal" style=""> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Here are my "challenges"<br>1) Simulation with setback temperatures shows no reduction in energy</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;">2) I am unsure how to handle DCV</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;">3) Simulation with economizers show very little reduction</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style=""> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;">I would appreciate any pointers, suggestions, etc. on what to do here.</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;">I would especially appreciate any example files to see how you input the data to get proper results.</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"
style=""> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style=""> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Thanks in advance for any help.</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style=""> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style=""> </p></div></div></div></div></div></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><br>_______________________________________________<br>Equest-users mailing list<br><span><a target="_blank" href="http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org">http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org</a></span><br>To unsubscribe from this mailing list send a blank message to <a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG" target="_blank" href="mailto:EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG">EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG</a></p></div><p class="MsoNormal">
</p></blockquote></div></div></div>
</div></body></html>