Thanks Nick for good explanation.<br><br>Actually in my project we are using almost 2ft wide external walls to get the effect of thermal mass. if I consider external wall area in eQUEST model my area deviation is almost 4% and mismatch in conditioned area is more than this. So project energy consumption would be more and also not able to match TR for the project.<br>
Actually we are also planning to go for 2.5% renewable energy credit, if I consider external wall than PV cost would be more.<br><br>Can I exclude external wall area for eQUEST modeling ?<br><br>--<br>With Thanks and Regards<br>
Praveen <br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 10:02 PM, Nick Caton <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:ncaton@smithboucher.com">ncaton@smithboucher.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Hi Praveen,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I’ve copied below a discussion from some time back outlining
my general practice for “where to draw the line” when it comes to
envelope/wall boundaries. This may be generally useful and seems to
answer at least part of your inquiry.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">When I’m doing electrical and/or HVAC design alongside the
model, my area takeoffs for each inevitably will match up, because I hate doing
the same work twice. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I use the outermost surfaces when defining my building footprint
and midpoints for all internal partitions for all calcs. Space-by-space LPD
calcs in a strict reading do not require the space areas to be measured to the outermost
surface of an exterior wall (they do say to use the midpoint of interior
partitions, as of 90.1-2007). I’d feel comfortable saying the extra
square-footage “handicap” I’m imposing on myself as a
lighting designer is an insignificant fraction in 99.9% of cases when
determining baseline LPD… </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Inevitably, areas summed for all spaces in a building between
architects, HVAC, and lighting designers will <u>not</u> match – that’s
a fact of life and in my book that’s okay, so long as nobody is way off. Model
reviewers will inevitably/reliably gripe when the numbers don’t match
exactly, and it’s usually an easy thing to either fix or explain
after the fact. If you to try to make everyone use the same numbers from
the DD/CD design phases, you’ve chosen a losing battle. For my part
in the role of the project’s energy modeler, I’m satisfied to allow
my fellow designers do their own calcs, and just ensure nobody is way off along
the way… quibbles over small differences in the final tallies, if they
come up, are easy to reconcile.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">~Nick</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><img src="" alt="cid:489575314@22072009-0ABB" width="119" height="37"></span><b><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);"></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);"> </span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">NICK CATON, E.I.T.</span></b><b><span style="color: rgb(45, 77, 94);"></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 7.5pt; color: rgb(204, 153, 0);">PROJECT ENGINEER</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">Smith & Boucher Engineers</span><span style="font-size: 7.5pt; color: rgb(204, 153, 0);"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">25501 west valley parkway</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">olathe ks 66061</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">direct 913 344.0036</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">fax 913 345.0617</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><a href="http://www.smithboucher.com" title="blocked::www.smithboucher.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: blue;">www.smithboucher.com</span></a></span><u><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: blue;"> </span></u><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<div style="border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; border-width: 1pt medium medium; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">
<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Praveen
Jain<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, February 28, 2011 3:37 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Equest-users] External wall area for simulation</span></p>
</div><div><div></div><div class="h5">
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Dear All</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">While modeling in eQUEST should we include external
wall area or not?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">While creating single line diagram I exclude external
wall and draw sld on inner of external wall to match conditioned area.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">But for lighting power density calculation ASHRAE 90.1
user manual suggest to including external wall area. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">We are getting mismatch in area calculation for all
HVAC, Lighting and Architectural design sides.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Can
anyone suggest what correct way of modeling in eQUEST ?</span><br clear="all">
<br>
-- <br>
With Thanks and Regards,<br>
Praveen K. Jain<br>
Roorkee<span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"></span></p>
<div style="border-style: none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color windowtext; border-width: medium medium 1pt; padding: 0in 0in 1pt;">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="border: medium none ; padding: 0in;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
</div></div><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> <a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Nick
Caton<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, August 04, 2010 1:20 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> John Aulbach; Nijenmanting, F.C.; <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] area of (internal) partitions</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Filique,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">This sounds a lot like a question I brought up when I was
getting started with eQuest and energy modeling in general: What is
“standard practice” regarding where the inter-zonal and footprint
boundaries are defined, relative to actual wall thicknesses? The quick
answer is that there aren’t any hard/fast answers to this. It was a
good discussion and is probably archived in [bldg-sim] if anyone cares to dig
around…</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">In short: </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><span>1.<span style="font-family: "Times New Roman"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">
</span></span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">eQuest areas correspond to the polygons used to define the floor
areas/building footprint. These polygons are defined by the shapes
defined or traced from a CAD file in the wizards. <u>I’m pretty
sure</u> (someone correct me if I’m wrong) the floor area taken up by
internal partitions (which have thickness) on the floor slab is NOT subtracted
from the total area, so if you double the thickness of your internal partitions
you will not see a change reflected in space areas. This is normally not
a big deal in the context of thermal modeled behavior, but if you have many
unusually thick partitions (1ft or more deep), you might want to either account
for them by modeling them as unconditioned zones between spaces. </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><span>2.<span style="font-family: "Times New Roman"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">
</span></span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Regarding “best practice,” here’s a set of
general guidelines that would apply to various loads & modeling software
packages (beyond eQuest), prioritizing the interest of modeling with thermal
accuracy:</span></p>
<p style="margin-left: 1in;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><span>a.<span style="font-family: "Times New Roman"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"> </span></span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Define
interior partitions using the midpoint between the two surfaces. This is
generally not terribly critical – I will take small liberties on this to
reduce the number of vertices and simply actual internal zones.</span></p>
<p style="margin-left: 1in;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><span>b.<span style="font-family: "Times New Roman"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"> </span></span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Define
the building footprint areas using the outermost surface.
This is more important as you want to accurately model the actual
amount of surface area subject to exterior loads.</span></p>
<p style="margin-left: 1in;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><span>c.<span style="font-family: "Times New Roman"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"> </span></span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Define
top of each zone (in the z-axis) using the top surface elevation the respective
floor or roof construction.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><span>3.<span style="font-family: "Times New Roman"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">
</span></span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">On a related note, this ties into the general advice to not use
energy modeling programs with the intent to create perfect 3D representations
of your buildings. If you need a pretty picture, they make 3D modeling
software for that purpose. When it comes to building geometries, simplicity
is a virtue, and ASHRAE will even back you up on that one (re: 90.1
User’s Manual). Avoiding overly-accurate building geometries lets
you spend more time modeling the more critical building elements of a
building’s energy behavior (loads/systems/schedules/etc).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Best wishes,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">~Nick</span><b><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);"></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);"> </span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><img src="" alt="cid:489575314@22072009-0ABB" width="119" border="0" height="37"></span><b><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);"></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);"> </span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">NICK CATON, E.I.T.</span></b><b><span style="color: rgb(45, 77, 94);"></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 7.5pt; color: rgb(204, 153, 0);">PROJECT ENGINEER</span><span style="font-size: 7.5pt; color: rgb(204, 153, 0);"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">25501 west valley parkway</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">olathe ks 66061</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">direct 913 344.0036</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">fax 913 345.0617</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">Check out our new web-site @ </span></i><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><a href="http://www.smithboucher.com" title="blocked::www.smithboucher.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">www.smithboucher.com</span></a></span><u><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: blue;"> </span></u><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">
<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>John
Aulbach<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, August 04, 2010 12:15 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Nijenmanting, F.C.; <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] area of (internal) partitions</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Filique:</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Can you rephrase your question, please? I don't
understand how doubling the size of your internal partitions decreases your
floor area. The eQuest floor areas are (to my undestandinding), from the
outside of outside walls to the "outside" of any internal partitions
IN THE SPACE THAT PARTITION RESIDES. You can have only one internal wall
separating two adjacent spaces.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Others may comment.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">John
R. Aulbach, PE, CEM</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Senior
Energy Engineer</span></p>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(23, 54, 93);">
<hr style="color: rgb(23, 54, 93);" width="30%" align="left" noshade size="2">
</span></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-variant: small-caps; color: navy;">Partner</span></b><b><span style="font-variant: small-caps; color: green;">
</span></b><b><span style="font-variant: small-caps; color: rgb(0, 102, 0);">Energy</span></b><b><span style="font-variant: small-caps; color: navy;"></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">1990
E. Grand Avenue, El Segundo, CA 90245<br>
W: 888-826-1216, X254| D: 310-765-7295 | F: 310-817-2745</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="http://www.ptrenergy.com/" target="_blank"><span>www.ptrenergy.com</span></a><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><a href="mailto:%7C%20jaulbach@ptrenergy.com" target="_blank"><span>|
jaulbach@ptrenergy.com</span></a><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">
<hr width="100%" align="center" size="1">
</span></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> "Nijenmanting,
F.C." <<a href="mailto:F.C.Nijenmanting@student.tue.nl" target="_blank">F.C.Nijenmanting@student.tue.nl</a>><br>
<b>To:</b> "<a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>"
<<a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wed, August 4, 2010 12:15:19 AM<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Equest-users] area of (internal) partitions<br>
</span><span style="font-size: 10pt;"><br>
Hello all,<br>
<br>
I have a question about the area which is calculated by equest.<br>
Does it take into account the width of internal partitions?<br>
In reality, if I would double the size of my internal walls, my actual floor
area decreases.<br>
But I could not find differences in the floor area calculated by Equest if I
change the thickness of my walls.<br>
<br>
A similar question accounts for the external partitions. For drawing the ground
plan, should I therefore take the internal boundary, external boundary or
middle line?<br>
<br>
Kind regards,<br>
Filique<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>with regards,<br>Praveen K. Jain<br>Roorkee<br>