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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>[If you are not interested in one-dimensional
heat transfer through insulated pipes – delete this message and
attachment.]<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Dan,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I looked this up after Michael’s
message. Heat transfer from an insulated pipe occurs by conduction through the
insulation (which you described below) and convection with the surrounding air
(and through radiation from the insulation surface, which can usually be
neglected). For small diameter tubes or wires, and for small convection
coefficients, it is possible for a small amount of insulation to increase heat
transfer. Once the insulation reaches a critical thickness, any additional
insulation decreases the heat loss. The attached example is from “Fundamentals
of Heat and Mass Transfer, Fourth Edition” by Frank <span class=SpellE>Incropera</span>
and David DeWitt. Note that the example mentions that, “In a plane wall the
area perpendicular to the direction of heat flow is constant and there is no
critical insulation thickness (the total resistance always increases with
increasing insulation thickness).”<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Bill<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=5 color=green face=Webdings><span
style='font-size:18.0pt;font-family:Webdings;mso-bidi-font-family:Webdings;
color:green;mso-no-proof:yes'>P</span></font><font color=green><span
style='color:green;mso-no-proof:yes'><span
style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span></span></font><font size=1
color=green><span style='font-size:7.5pt;color:green;mso-no-proof:yes'>Sustainability
– the forest AND the trees.</span></font><font size=5 color=green
face=Webdings><span style='font-size:18.0pt;font-family:Webdings;mso-bidi-font-family:
Webdings;color:green;mso-no-proof:yes'> P<span style='mso-tab-count:1'> </span></span></font><font
color=green><span style='color:green'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Daniel Knapp<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, March 01, 2011 1:25
PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> Michael Hardy<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b>
equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [Equest-users]
External wall area for simulation</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Since the area of the outside surface of the insulation scales with the
thickness of the insulation (surface area = 2*Pi*L*radius), I don't see how it
is possible to increase the heat loss by adding insulation to a pipe. The
formula for radial heat flow from the inside to the outside of a cylinder is
given by Q = [2*Pi*k*L (T_i - T_o)] / [Ln(r_o/r_i)], where k is the thermal conductivity,
L is the length of the cylinder, T_i is the inside temperature, T_o is the
outside temperature, r_o is the outside radius, r_o is the interior radius.
As the thickness of the cylinder increases (that is, as r_o increases)
the radial heat flow will decrease as 1/Log(r_o).<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Dan<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div><span style='orphans: 2;text-align:auto;widows: 2;-webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px;
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<p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-style-span><font size=4 color=black
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'>—</span></font></span><font
size=4 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black'><br>
<span class=apple-style-span>Daniel Knapp, PhD, LEED® AP O+M</span><br>
<span class=apple-style-span><a href="mailto:danielk@arborus.ca">danielk@arborus.ca</a></span><br>
<br>
<span class=apple-style-span>Arborus Consulting</span><br>
<span class=apple-style-span>Energy Strategies for the Built Environment</span><br>
<span class=apple-style-span>www.arborus.ca</span><br>
<st1:place w:st="on"><span class=apple-style-span>76 Chamberlain Avenue </span><br>
<st1:City w:st="on"><span class=apple-style-span>Ottawa</span></st1:City><span
class=apple-style-span>, <st1:State w:st="on">ON</st1:State>, <st1:PostalCode
w:st="on">K1S 1V9</st1:PostalCode></span></st1:place><span
class=apple-style-span> </span><br>
<span class=apple-style-span>Phone: (613) 234-7178 ext. 113</span><br>
<span class=apple-style-span>Fax: (613) 234-0740</span><br>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
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<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>On 2011-03-01, at 10:47 AM, Michael Hardy wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
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<![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]><br style='mso-special-character:line-break'>
<![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<span style='orphans: 2;widows: 2;-webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px;
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>As Nick previously
mentioned, you may need to use different areas for different aspects of the
project (lighting, PV, energy, ventilation, etc.) For the energy modeling
portion, you should probably talk to your project design engineer as the
building construction you describe is a bit unusual.<u1:p></u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Going back to the
fundamental heat flow equations that simulations use, the heat flow calculation
is based on some area and includes outside and inside air films, wall
assembly construction, material properties, heat transfer path, etc. For
your specific building, the thermal properties of the wall material may not
offset the additional wall areas due to the thickness of the wall. In a
normal size building, the wall area of the corners is usually small in
comparison to the total wall area so the corner details become
negligible. Since you’ve said the building area changes by 4% when
you include the wall thickness, you are correct to raise the question. I
think the question needs to go back to the design engineer who is familiar with
your specific building construction.<u1:p></u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>In a very simple
example, when specifying insulation for piping, it is actually possible to<span
class=apple-converted-space> </span><u>increase</u><span
class=apple-converted-space> </span>the heat-loss by<span
class=apple-converted-space> </span><u>adding</u><span
class=apple-converted-space> </span>too much insulation because of the
increase in surface area relative to the insulation thickness. I know
your building is not a pipe (and probably not round) but this simple example
just goes to show how important it is to understand the limitations of the
equations being used and not assume that what is negligible for 8-12”
thick wall construction, is also negligible for 24” thick wall
construction.<u1:p></u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Regards,<u1:p></u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Michael Hardy, PE, F.NSPE</span></font><span
class=apple-converted-space><font size=2 color="#1f497d"><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span></font></span><font size=2
color="#1f497d"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;color:black'>Sr. Mechanical Engineer</span></font><font
size=2 color="#1f497d"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><br>
</span></font><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:#1F497D'>Black Oak Engineering, Inc.</span></font><font
color="#1f497d" face=Tahoma><span style='font-family:Tahoma;color:#1F497D'><br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;color:black'>Cell 503.314.5244</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<u1:p></u1:p>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;
border-width:initial;border-color:initial'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><span
class=apple-converted-space><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> </span></font></span><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><a
href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a><span
class=apple-converted-space> </span>[mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org]<span
class=apple-converted-space> </span><b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On
Behalf Of<span class=apple-converted-space> </span></span></b>Praveen Jain<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b><span
class=apple-converted-space> </span>Tuesday, March 01, 2011 4:44 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b><span
class=apple-converted-space> </span>Nick Caton<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b><span
class=apple-converted-space> </span><a
href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b><span
class=apple-converted-space> </span>Re: [Equest-users] External wall area
for simulation<u1:p></u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div><u1:p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</u1:p></div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Thanks Nick for good
explanation.<br>
<br>
Actually in my project we are using almost 2ft wide external walls to get the
effect of thermal mass. if I consider external wall area in eQUEST model my
area deviation is almost 4% and mismatch in conditioned area is more than this.
So project energy consumption would be more and also not able to match TR for
the project.<br>
Actually we are also planning to go for 2.5% renewable energy credit, if I
consider external wall than PV cost would be more.<br>
<br>
Can I exclude external wall area for eQUEST modeling ?<br>
<br>
--<br>
With Thanks and Regards<br>
Praveen<o:p></o:p></span></font><u1:p></u1:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 10:02 PM, Nick Caton <<a
href="mailto:ncaton@smithboucher.com">ncaton@smithboucher.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<u1:p></u1:p></div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Hi Praveen,</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<u1:p></u1:p></div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<u1:p></u1:p></div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>I’ve copied below a discussion
from some time back outlining my general practice for “where to draw the
line” when it comes to envelope/wall boundaries. This may be
generally useful and seems to answer at least part of your inquiry.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<u1:p></u1:p></div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<u1:p></u1:p></div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>When I’m doing electrical and/or
HVAC design alongside the model, my area takeoffs for each inevitably will
match up, because I hate doing the same work twice. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<u1:p></u1:p></div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<u1:p></u1:p></div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>I use the outermost surfaces when
defining my building footprint and midpoints for all internal partitions for
all calcs. Space-by-space LPD calcs in a strict reading do not require
the space areas to be measured to the outermost surface of an exterior wall
(they do say to use the midpoint of interior partitions, as of 90.1-2007).
I’d feel comfortable saying the extra square-footage
“handicap” I’m imposing on myself as a lighting designer is
an insignificant fraction in 99.9% of cases when determining baseline
LPD… </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<u1:p></u1:p></div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<u1:p></u1:p></div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Inevitably, areas summed for all spaces
in a building between architects, HVAC, and lighting designers will<span
class=apple-converted-space> </span><u>not</u><span
class=apple-converted-space> </span>match – that’s a fact of
life and in my book that’s okay, so long as nobody is way off.
Model reviewers will inevitably/reliably gripe when the numbers
don’t match exactly, and it’s usually an easy thing to either
fix or explain after the fact. If you to try to make everyone use the
same numbers from the DD/CD design phases, you’ve chosen a losing
battle. For my part in the role of the project’s energy modeler,
I’m satisfied to allow my fellow designers do their own calcs, and just
ensure nobody is way off along the way… quibbles over small differences
in the final tallies, if they come up, are easy to reconcile.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<u1:p></u1:p></div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<u1:p></u1:p></div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>~Nick</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<u1:p></u1:p></div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<u1:p></u1:p></div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;font-weight:bold'>Error! Filename not
specified.</span></font></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<u1:p></u1:p></div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 color="#2d4d5e" face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#2D4D5E;font-weight:bold'> </span></font></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<u1:p></u1:p></div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 color="#2d4d5e" face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#2D4D5E;font-weight:bold'>NICK CATON, E.I.T.</span></font></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<u1:p></u1:p></div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=1 color="#cc9900" face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:7.5pt;color:#CC9900'>PROJECT ENGINEER</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<u1:p></u1:p></div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#2d4d5e" face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E'>Smith & Boucher Engineers</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<u1:p></u1:p></div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#2d4d5e" face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E'>25501 west valley parkway</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<u1:p></u1:p></div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on"><font size=2
color="#2d4d5e" face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:#2D4D5E'>olathe</span></font></st1:place></st1:City><font size=2
color="#2d4d5e"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E'> ks 66061</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<u1:p></u1:p></div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#2d4d5e" face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E'>direct 913 344.0036</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<u1:p></u1:p></div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#2d4d5e" face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E'>fax 913 345.0617</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<u1:p></u1:p></div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><a href="http://www.smithboucher.com/"
target="_blank" title="blocked::www.smithboucher.com"><font size=2><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>www.smithboucher.com</span></font></a></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<u1:p></u1:p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<u1:p></u1:p></div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;
border-width:initial;border-color:initial'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><span
class=apple-converted-space><font size=2><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> </span></font></span><font
size=2><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><a
href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a><span
class=apple-converted-space> </span>[mailto:<a
href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]<span
class=apple-converted-space> </span><b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On
Behalf Of<span class=apple-converted-space> </span></span></b>Praveen Jain<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b><span
class=apple-converted-space> </span>Monday, February 28, 2011 3:37 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b><span
class=apple-converted-space> </span><a
href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b><span
class=apple-converted-space> </span>[Equest-users] External wall area for
simulation</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<u1:p></u1:p></div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<u1:p></u1:p></div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>Dear All</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<u1:p></u1:p></div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<u1:p></u1:p></div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>While modeling in eQUEST should we include external wall area or not?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<u1:p></u1:p></div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>While creating single line diagram I exclude external wall and draw sld
on inner of external wall to match conditioned area.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<u1:p></u1:p></div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>But for lighting power density calculation ASHRAE 90.1 user manual
suggest to including external wall area.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<u1:p></u1:p></div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>We are getting mismatch in area calculation for all HVAC, Lighting and
Architectural design sides.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<u1:p></u1:p></div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<u1:p></u1:p></div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>Can anyone suggest what correct way of modeling in eQUEST ?</span></font><br
clear=all>
<br>
--<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><br>
With Thanks and Regards,<br>
Praveen K. Jain<br>
Roorkee<o:p></o:p></p>
<u1:p></u1:p></div>
<div style='border:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 1.0pt 0in;
border-width:initial;border-color:initial'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<u1:p></u1:p></div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<u1:p></u1:p></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><span
class=apple-converted-space><font size=2><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> </span></font></span><font
size=2><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><a
href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a><span
class=apple-converted-space> </span>[mailto:<a
href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]<span
class=apple-converted-space> </span><b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf
Of<span class=apple-converted-space> </span></span></b>Nick Caton<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b><span
class=apple-converted-space> </span>Wednesday, August 04, 2010 1:20 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b><span
class=apple-converted-space> </span>John Aulbach; Nijenmanting, F.C.;<span
class=apple-converted-space> </span><a
href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b><span
class=apple-converted-space> </span>Re: [Equest-users] area of (internal)
partitions</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<u1:p></u1:p></div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<u1:p></u1:p></div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Filique,</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<u1:p></u1:p></div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<u1:p></u1:p></div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>This sounds a lot like a question I
brought up when I was getting started with eQuest and energy modeling in
general: What is “standard practice” regarding where the
inter-zonal and footprint boundaries are defined, relative to actual wall
thicknesses? The quick answer is that there aren’t any hard/fast
answers to this. It was a good discussion and is probably archived in
[bldg-sim] if anyone cares to dig around…</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<u1:p></u1:p></div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<u1:p></u1:p></div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>In short: </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<u1:p></u1:p></div>
<p><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>1.</span></font><font size=1 color="#1f497d"><span
style='font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D'> <span
class=apple-converted-space> </span></span></font><font size=2
color="#1f497d"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>eQuest areas
correspond to the polygons used to define the floor areas/building
footprint. These polygons are defined by the shapes defined or traced
from a CAD file in the wizards. <u>I’m pretty sure</u><span
class=apple-converted-space> </span>(someone correct me if I’m
wrong) the floor area taken up by internal partitions (which have thickness) on
the floor slab is NOT subtracted from the total area, so if you double the
thickness of your internal partitions you will not see a change reflected in
space areas. This is normally not a big deal in the context of thermal
modeled behavior, but if you have many unusually thick partitions (1ft or more
deep), you might want to either account for them by modeling them as
unconditioned zones between spaces. </span></font><u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>2.</span></font><font size=1 color="#1f497d"><span
style='font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D'> <span
class=apple-converted-space> </span></span></font><font size=2
color="#1f497d"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Regarding
“best practice,” here’s a set of general guidelines that
would apply to various loads & modeling software packages (beyond eQuest),
prioritizing the interest of modeling with thermal accuracy:</span></font><u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>a.</span></font><font size=1
color="#1f497d"><span style='font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D'> <span
class=apple-converted-space> </span></span></font><font size=2
color="#1f497d"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Define interior
partitions using the midpoint between the two surfaces. This is generally
not terribly critical – I will take small liberties on this to reduce the
number of vertices and simply actual internal zones.</span></font><u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>b.</span></font><font size=1
color="#1f497d"><span style='font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D'> <span
class=apple-converted-space> </span></span></font><font size=2
color="#1f497d"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Define the
building footprint areas using the outermost surface. This is
more important as you want to accurately model the actual amount of surface
area subject to exterior loads.</span></font><u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>c.</span></font><font size=1
color="#1f497d"><span style='font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D'> <span
class=apple-converted-space> </span></span></font><font size=2
color="#1f497d"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Define top of each
zone (in the z-axis) using the top surface elevation the respective floor or
roof construction.</span></font><u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>3.</span></font><font size=1 color="#1f497d"><span
style='font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D'> <span
class=apple-converted-space> </span></span></font><font size=2
color="#1f497d"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>On a related note,
this ties into the general advice to not use energy modeling programs with the
intent to create perfect 3D representations of your buildings. If you
need a pretty picture, they make 3D modeling software for that purpose.
When it comes to building geometries, simplicity is a virtue, and ASHRAE will
even back you up on that one (re: 90.1 User’s Manual). Avoiding
overly-accurate building geometries lets you spend more time modeling the more
critical building elements of a building’s energy behavior
(loads/systems/schedules/etc).</span></font><u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<u1:p></u1:p></div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Best wishes,</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<u1:p></u1:p></div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<u1:p></u1:p></div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>~Nick</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<u1:p></u1:p></div>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 color="#2d4d5e" face="Times New Roman"><span
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#2d4d5e" face="Times New Roman"><span
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<p class=MsoNormal><i><font size=2 color="#2d4d5e" face="Times New Roman"><span
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><span
class=apple-converted-space><font size=2><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> </span></font></span><font
size=2><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><a
href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a><span
class=apple-converted-space> </span>[mailto:<a
href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]<span
class=apple-converted-space> </span><b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On
Behalf Of<span class=apple-converted-space> </span></span></b>John Aulbach<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b><span
class=apple-converted-space> </span>Wednesday, August 04, 2010 12:15 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b><span
class=apple-converted-space> </span>Nijenmanting, F.C.;<span
class=apple-converted-space> </span><a
href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b><span
class=apple-converted-space> </span>Re: [Equest-users] area of (internal)
partitions</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<u1:p></u1:p></div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<u1:p></u1:p></div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Filique:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<u1:p></u1:p></div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<u1:p></u1:p></div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Can you rephrase your question, please? I don't understand how
doubling the size of your internal partitions decreases your floor area. The
eQuest floor areas are (to my undestandinding), from the outside of outside
walls to the "outside" of any internal partitions IN THE SPACE THAT
PARTITION RESIDES. You can have only one internal wall separating two adjacent
spaces.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<u1:p></u1:p></div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<u1:p></u1:p></div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Others may comment.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<u1:p></u1:p></div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<u1:p></u1:p></div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D'>John R. Aulbach, PE, CEM</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<u1:p></u1:p></div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Senior Energy Engineer</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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<div>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=3 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-variant:small-caps;color:navy;font-weight:bold'>Partner</span></font><span
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color:green'> </span></font></span><font color="#006600"><span
style='font-variant:small-caps;color:#006600'>Energy</span></font></b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><st1:address w:st="on"><st1:Street w:st="on"><font size=3
color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
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color="#1f497d"><span style='color:#1F497D'>, <st1:City w:st="on">El Segundo</st1:City>,
<st1:State w:st="on">CA</st1:State> <st1:PostalCode w:st="on">90245</st1:PostalCode></span></font></st1:address><br>
<font color="#1f497d"><span style='color:#1F497D'>W: 888-826-1216, X254| D:
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href="mailto:%7C%20jaulbach@ptrenergy.com" target="_blank">|
jaulbach@ptrenergy.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=2
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>
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</span></font></div>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><span
class=apple-converted-space><font size=2><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> </span></font></span><font
size=2><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>"Nijenmanting, F.C." <<a
href="mailto:F.C.Nijenmanting@student.tue.nl" target="_blank">F.C.Nijenmanting@student.tue.nl</a>><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b><span
class=apple-converted-space> </span>"<a
href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>"
<<a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b><span
class=apple-converted-space> </span>Wed, August 4, 2010 12:15:19 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b><span
class=apple-converted-space> </span>[Equest-users] area of (internal)
partitions<br>
<br>
Hello all,<br>
<br>
I have a question about the area which is calculated by equest.<br>
Does it take into account the width of internal partitions?<br>
In reality, if I would double the size of my internal walls, my actual floor
area decreases.<br>
But I could not find differences in the floor area calculated by Equest if I
change the thickness of my walls.<br>
<br>
A similar question accounts for the external partitions. For drawing the ground
plan, should I therefore take the internal boundary, external boundary or
middle line?<br>
<br>
Kind regards,<br>
Filique<br>
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<br>
--<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><br>
with regards,<br>
Praveen K. Jain<br>
Roorkee<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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