<html><head><style type="text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></head><body><div style="font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:10pt">Nick:<br><br>I come from a mechanical contracting and service
background. Condenser water temperature is a hotly debated item. Some
manufacturers define a very narrow range of acceptable condenser water
temperature and others define a very narrow range of the temperature
difference between entering and leaving condenser water temperature.<br>
<br>
During one investment-grade audit I performed recently, Trane told me that the condenser water dt can be no <span style="text-decoration: underline;">less</span>
than 5 degrees for maximum efficiency on the 650 ton CVHE chillers I
was working with. The water temperature could be anywhere to 50-80
degrees. This machine had hot-gas bypass to keep the head pressure up.<br>
<br>
Other chillers that I have overhauled require a very narrow band of
condenser water temperature, such as 75-78 degrees supply temperature.
So modeling a wide condenser water range does not make much sense to me
since it is not a real world application. The chillers I have worked on
either have a tower bypass loop or a hot gas bypass to keep the
condensing pressure up where it belongs. Energy is wasted when too cold a condenser water temperature is specified.<br>
<br>
Other manufacturers say the colder the better.<br>
<br>
Specifying variable primary chilled water flow and variable condenser
water flow has a large impact on chiller efficiency. I ask the
manufacturers to provide me the kW/Ton for minimum flow, standard flow
and maximum flow for the evaporator and condenser bundles. A chiller
that has an kW/Ton of .56 at AHRI conditions can often have a 1.3 kW/Ton
at minimum condenser flow (3 gpm/ton) at 30% load.<br>
<br>
The IPLV is really a useless rating for a real world application since
it assumes a certain percentage load a certain percentage of the time.
It all depends on the design of the system and the load profile. It is a
good rating to compare various chillers if they conform to the load
profile. I see more chillers that run in the 40-60% range 90% of the
time than I see chillers that match the IPLV conditions.<br>
<br>
During my investment-grade reviews with our local utility, the lift of the chiller is always an important consideration.<br>
<br>
There was an e-mail for someone, I believe York, that offered to model
any manufacturers chiller on this forum a few months ago. I have had
good luck getting the rep to provide the information that I requested as
long as I find the right person.<br>
<br>
Paul<div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 10pt;"><br><div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><hr size="1"><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> Nick Caton <ncaton@smithboucher.com><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> Paul Diglio <paul.diglio@sbcglobal.net>; equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Fri, February 25, 2011 2:50:44 PM<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> RE: [Equest-users] using IPLV in eQuest<br></font><br>
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<div class="Section1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Paul, I may not have been crystal-clear, but if someone is merely
making a comparative analysis between two screw chillers, aren’t the relative effects
of varying lift between the two chillers negligible? My general understanding
is that lift is a more critical variable when comparing VSD centrifugal
chillers… This is why I suggested a simpler EIR-fPLR curve would be sufficient
in lieu of an EIR-fPLR&dT – I was trying to simplify Rohini’s comparative
analysis.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I’d agree that an EIR-fPLR&dT curve would be more precise and
more appropriate if the goal is to better match the chiller behavior (and
creating custom CAP-FT and EIR-FT would be even better), but I was thinking this
would require an unnecessary amount of extra work for Rohini’s comparative
purpose.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">My “suggested information to request” below for constructing
EIR-fPLR&dT curves is based on my past experience with limitations of my local
manf. rep’s software – they need to set certain items constant to get the
numbers to crunch… Have you had luck collecting PLR runs where the evaporator
and/or condenser temp was allowed to float? I’ve picked up through the lists
that a better way to skin the cat may be to approach the chiller controls reps
where they may exist, as they may have more flexible software…</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I throw this disclaimer out sometimes: I certainly haven’t been
doing this for decades! If I’m misunderstanding something, I very much welcome
corrections ;). </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Thanks,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">~Nick</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><img id="_x0000_i1029" src="cid:1.3020683678@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com" alt="cid:489575314@22072009-0ABB" width="119" height="37"></span><b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);"></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);"> </span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">NICK CATON, E.I.T.</span></b><b><span style="font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);"></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 7.5pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(204, 153, 0);">PROJECT ENGINEER</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">Smith & Boucher Engineers</span><span style="font-size: 7.5pt; color: rgb(204, 153, 0);"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">25501 west valley parkway</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">olathe ks 66061</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">direct 913 344.0036</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">fax 913 345.0617</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><a rel="nofollow" title="blocked::www.smithboucher.com"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">www.smithboucher.com</span></a></span><u><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: blue;"> </span></u><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="border-width: 1pt medium medium; border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "sans-serif";">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "sans-serif";"> Paul Diglio
[mailto:paul.diglio@sbcglobal.net] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 25, 2011 12:44 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Nick Caton; James Waechter; equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] using IPLV in eQuest</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Actually
what everyone is calling dt is more accurately referred to as lift. It is
the difference between the saturated evaporating temperature and the saturated
condensing temperature, which is different than the condenser water temperature
and the evaporator water temperature.<br>
<br>
A more accurate curve can be built if you have the chiller manufacturer model
both these variables for you, rather than leaving the evaporator water
temperature constant and just varying the condenser water temperature.
Any change in the evaporator pressure will effect the condensing pressure and
any change in the condensing pressure will effect the evaporator pressure.</span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Paul</span></p>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "sans-serif";">
<hr align="center" width="100%" size="1">
</span></div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "sans-serif";">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "sans-serif";"> Nick Caton <ncaton@smithboucher.com><br>
<b>To:</b> James Waechter <jamesw@McKinstry.com>;
equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Fri, February 25, 2011 1:21:42 PM<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] using IPLV in eQuest</span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">James et al,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Rohini will need to create performance curves to make this
particular comparison. Otherwise using the default curves will result in
identical part load performances.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><span>The following is excerpted from the following (short)
recommended reading concerning what IPLV means: <a target="_blank" href="http://ashrae-cfl.org/2010/03/understanding-iplvnplv/">http://ashrae-cfl.org/2010/03/understanding-iplvnplv/</a></span></span></p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.5in;">IPLV (or NPLV) = 0.01A+0.42B+0.45C+0.12D</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.5in;">Where:</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.5in;">A = COP or EER @ 100% Load</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.5in;">B = COP or EER @ 75% Load</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.5in;">C = COP or EER @ 50% Load</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.5in;">D = COP or EER @ 25% Load</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">John is saying knowing only the IPLV and the 100% load condition
efficiency (variable ‘A,’ above) is not enough information to extrapolate the
IPLV curves to compare the two chillers. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">For the exercise of comparing the two non-centrifugal chillers
of the same technology/type, I would just focus on making a custom EIR-FPLR
(not EIR-fPLR&dT) for each chiller, and use the library CAP-FT AND EIR-FT
curves. My understanding is the effects of temperature on capacity and
EIR outside of centrifugal VSD chillers is negligible. NOTE:
Whenever using any of the default library chiller performance curves, that
means you MUST normalize to and specify the chiller at ARI conditions – those
curves aren’t normalized to anything else.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">So! If you can find the IPLV A, B, C and D values for both
chillers’ curves, you could come up with your EIR-FPLR curve coefficients (<u>curve
type = quadratic or cubic</u>) using a curve-fit in excel… or alternatively
make eQuest figure the coefficients by entering those points as raw data.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">You may more easily just make your own curves, following John’s
advice and getting part load unloading curves (100%, 90%, 80%... etc) held at a
constant chilled & condenser temperature to match the ARI* conditions
(85CWT if this is water cooled) at which you’re specifying the chiller
capacity/EIR. Again, you could either go into excel, normalize the data
(review DOE2 help entry for EIR-FPLR), make a scatter chart, and get the
coefficients using a curve fit… or enter the data as raw points into eQuest and
the coefficients will be figured by eQuest… whatever makes more sense to you.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif";">For
others and personal future reference…. If you are looking to make an <u>EIR-fPLR&dT</u>
curve (for centrifugal chillers or otherwise): Ask your rep instead for
multiple (minimum 3) part load unloading runs, holding the delivered chilled
water temp constant, and vary the condenser water temperature incrementally for
each run (i.e. 85, 75, 65). Choose a range of CWT’s that cover the
anticipated range to be encountered in the actual design. This will get you
enough data to have the minimum 3 delta-T’s represented in your part load data
points to build this curve correctly. You’ll be using eQuest “raw-data”
entry method to make it generate the coefficients.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif";">~Nick</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">* Rather than ARI conditions (85F CWT), you could be normalizing
to Design condition EIR/CAP, provided you’re making a full set of custom curves
in the same fashion.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><img id="Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:1.3020683678@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com" alt="cid:489575314@22072009-0ABB" border="0" width="119" height="37"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);"> </span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">NICK CATON, E.I.T.</span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 7.5pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(204, 153, 0);">PROJECT ENGINEER</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">Smith & Boucher Engineers</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">25501 west valley parkway</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">olathe ks 66061</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">direct 913 344.0036</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">fax 913 345.0617</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><a target="_blank" href="http://www.smithboucher.com">www.smithboucher.com</a></span><u><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: blue;"> </span></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="border-width: 1pt medium medium; border-style: solid none none; border-color: windowtext -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "sans-serif";">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "sans-serif";"> equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>James
Waechter<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 25, 2011 10:55 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] using IPLV in eQuest</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "sans-serif";">John,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "sans-serif";"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "sans-serif";">If
the only parameter Rohini enters into the program is the full-load EIR – which
he said is the same for both chillers – how will eQuest know to bend the curves
differently for the two chiller options. It is my understanding that
program would use the same chiller efficiency curves for both machines even
though their IPLVs are different.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "sans-serif";"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "sans-serif";">In
order to overcome this issue, are you saying Rohini should get chiller
performance data from each of the manufacturers and enter his own custom
curves? I recall there was a discussion on that topic a few months back.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "sans-serif";"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "sans-serif";">Regards,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "sans-serif";">James
Waechter Jr., P.E., CEM, LEED A.P.<br>
Energy Engineer – Rocky Mountain Region<br>
p 303 215 4062 | m 727 686 3248</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "sans-serif";">McKinstry</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "sans-serif";"><br>
Consulting | Construction | Energy | Facility Services</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "sans-serif";"><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.mckinstry.com/"><span style="color: windowtext;">www.mckinstry.com</span></a>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "sans-serif";"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "sans-serif";"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "sans-serif";"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="border-width: 1pt medium medium; border-style: solid none none; border-color: windowtext -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "sans-serif";">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "sans-serif";">
equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>John
Aulbach<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 25, 2011 9:41 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> R B; eQUEST Users List<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] using IPLV in eQuest</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Rohini:</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Won't happen. IPLV is a number which has one equation and 4
unknowns. Actually, three unknowns as you know the 100% point. You need a
manufacturer's curve run at 85F constant condenser water temperature. Let
eQuest do the curve bending after that. ARI curve won't work right.</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">John
R. Aulbach, PE, CEM</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Senior
Energy Engineer</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family: "sans-serif"; font-variant: small-caps; color: navy;">Partner</span></b><b><span style="font-family: "sans-serif"; font-variant: small-caps; color: green;"> </span></b><b><span style="font-family: "sans-serif"; font-variant: small-caps; color: rgb(0, 102, 0);">Energy</span></b></p>
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E. Grand Avenue, El Segundo, CA 90245<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "sans-serif";">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "sans-serif";"> R B <slv3sat@gmail.com><br>
<b>To:</b> eQUEST Users List <equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Fri, February 25, 2011 7:25:18 AM<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Equest-users] using IPLV in eQuest</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Hi All, </p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I would like to compare two screw chillers with same full
load kW/ton and different IPLV kW/ton. I am using the full load number for the
EIR. Where can the IPLV number be used? Is there some way to scale the
performance curves to reflect different IPLV's?</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">-Rohini</p>
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