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<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Paul,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I agree – using a dummy zone approach but without using
OA-FROM-SYSTEM is probably inadvisable and difficult at best… certainly not
preferable – I was drawn to attempt this once where circumstances prevented me
from using OA-FROM-SYSTEM. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I haven’t considered this particular approach in a long while
(and hope to not have to), but here’s a few suggestions if you or others are
trying to tweak/correct this approach and are encountering those issues listed:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><span
style='mso-list:Ignore'>1.<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Dummy space volume can be adjusted, and a dummy zone (in my
mind) should have zero heat transfer – deleting the offending space surfaces may
do the trick ;).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><span
style='mso-list:Ignore'>2.<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>The system exhaust at the ERV components should match the return
air stream temperature – perhaps add an internal load using the fractional
schedule used for ventilation (remember this isn’t using OA-FROM-SYSTEM) and
assigned to a dummy meter (free) to bump the RA into the right range?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><span
style='mso-list:Ignore'>3.<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>ERV-FAN-KW-FFLOW produces a figure that considers both the
system’s MIN-OUTSIDE-AIR ratio and the hourly ventilation flow. It’s possible the
hourly flows (re: ventilation schedule), MIN-OUTSIDE-AIR ratio and/or the fan
curve used may be throwing the hourly expected power draw off… you’d have to
investigate further.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><span
style='mso-list:Ignore'>4.<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>This point – achieving the correct hourly ventilation
requirement - is why in the end, this method avoiding OA-FROM-SYSTEM is such a
pain to construct and document. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I also hope DOE2/eQuest may someday have a “parent DOAS” option
for airside systems… I’m not privy to exactly how development is funded, but I speculate
this issue might fall into the category of “a really big R&D windfall needs
to navigate through the state of California.” (i.e. <a
href="http://gov.ca.gov/news.php?id=16872">not anytime soon</a>)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>~Nick<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><img border=0 width=119 height=37 id="_x0000_i1029"
src="cid:image001.jpg@01CBBE28.08882320" alt="cid:489575314@22072009-0ABB"></span><b><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E'><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>NICK CATON, E.I.T.</span></b><b><span style='font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#CC9900'>PROJECT ENGINEER<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>Smith & Boucher Engineers</span><span style='font-size:7.5pt;
color:#CC9900'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>25501 west valley parkway<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>olathe ks 66061<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>direct 913 344.0036<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>fax 913 345.0617<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><a href="www.smithboucher.com"
title="blocked::www.smithboucher.com"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>www.smithboucher.com</span></a></span><u><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:blue'> </span></u><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Paul Diglio
[mailto:paul.diglio@sbcglobal.net] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, January 27, 2011 1:31 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Nick Caton; Susan F; equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] DOAS in baseline<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Nick:<br>
<br>
The problems I have experienced with using a dummy zone, without OA From Units,
for the DOAS, as confirmed by different hourly reports I input are as follows:<br>
1. The dummy zone does not equal the size of the conditioned
space served and heat loss/gain is not accurate.<br>
2. The return air temperature is not indicative of what is
being returned to the DOAS when a ERV is used.<br>
3. The fan kW of a variable speed DOAS does not track
correctly.<br>
4. The dummy zone occupancy level and schedule do not equal
that of all the systems served.<br>
<br>
When using an OA From System, if the system served is not running, eQuest
assumes no outside air is being supplied. The designer needs to specify
OA isolation dampers on the systems served.<br>
<br>
I recently modeled two projects with DOAS that was conditioning one zone
(Corridors) and supplying ventilation air to the other systems. This
design results in more accurate modeling, a dummy zone is not needed, but the
same problem of incorrect return air temperatures for an ERV, since only the
heat loss or gain from the corridor is included.<br>
<br>
DOAS is becoming more and more popular, due in large part to LEED 62.1
requirements, and hopefully the eQuest developers will refine the program to
accurately model this system<br>
<br>
Paul Diglio<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
<hr size=1 width="100%" align=center>
</span></div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Nick Caton <ncaton@smithboucher.com><br>
<b>To:</b> Paul Diglio <paul.diglio@sbcglobal.net>; Susan F
<modelsenergy@gmail.com>; equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thu, January 27, 2011 10:55:07 AM<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Equest-users] DOAS in baseline</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Hi Paul!</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>1.</span><span style='font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D'>
</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>You could specify the DOAS as part of the systems it’s serving
(breaking out the fan energies/ERV components/preconditioning and so forth),
then the OA and scheduling specified at the zonal level carries through.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>2.</span><span style='font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D'>
</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>If the DOAS has preconditioning/ERV elements maintaining
specific temperature setpoints, then those could be specified at the systems
being served. This may not be technically feasible for every system type.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I’ve used both approaches in the past: OA-FROM-SYSTEM using
dummy zone(s) and integrating DOAS/ERV into the proposed systems served.
I believe both are viable approaches, with the first benefiting from more
nuanced control over system behavior (fans, specifically), and the latter being
much easier/simpler to set up and troubleshoot.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>~Nick</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><img border=0 width=119 height=37 id="_x0000_i1026"
src="cid:image001.jpg@01CBBE28.08882320" alt="cid:489575314@22072009-0ABB"></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>NICK CATON, E.I.T.</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#CC9900'>PROJECT ENGINEER</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>Smith & Boucher Engineers</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>25501 west valley parkway</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>olathe ks 66061</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>direct 913 344.0036</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>fax 913 345.0617</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>www.smithboucher.com</span><u><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue'> </span></u><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;
border-color:-moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> Paul Diglio
[mailto:paul.diglio@sbcglobal.net] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, January 27, 2011 9:41 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Nick Caton; Susan F; equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] DOAS in baseline</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Nick:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>If you do not use the OA From
System how will eQuest calculate the CFM required by varying occupancy? In
addition, since the DOAS system might not provide the supply air temperatures
required eQuest will not correctly calculate the energy required to condition
the OA.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Paul Diglio</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> Nick Caton <ncaton@smithboucher.com><br>
<b>To:</b> Susan F <modelsenergy@gmail.com>;
equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thu, January 27, 2011 10:21:55 AM<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] DOAS in baseline</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Hi Susan!</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Whether or not a baseline model gets a separate system for a
proposed design featuring a DOAS is dependent on a few things, including how
you decided to approach modeling the DOAS in the proposed model.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>-</span><span style='font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D'>
</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>A clarification first: Type and quantity of baseline
systems is determined first and foremost per Appendix G.3.1.1. You
generally have either one system per floor or one system per zone, depending on
the system type. You never start with “one system per proposed system”
except by coincidence.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>-</span><span style='font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D'>
</span><u><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>If</span></u><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> you use a dummy zone approach (not integrating the DOAS into
the proposed systems), <u>and</u> you have one baseline system serving only the
dummy zone per G.3.1.1 (or its exceptions), <u>and</u> you have specified the
ventilation requirements at that dummy zone (not indirectly from the actual
zones - using OA-FROM-SYSTEM for the proposed systems)… <u>then</u> you’ll end
up with a distinct baseline system handling the ventilation requirements
analogous to the proposed DOAS. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>-</span><span style='font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D'>
</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>In many/most cases (partially dependant on your preferred
strategy for handling DOAS’s in your proposed models), you will not have a
dedicated baseline system handling the ventilation air. That’s okay.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.25in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>~Nick</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><img border=0 width=119 height=37 id="Picture_x0020_1"
src="cid:image001.jpg@01CBBE28.08882320" alt="cid:489575314@22072009-0ABB"></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>NICK CATON, E.I.T.</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#CC9900'>PROJECT ENGINEER</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>Smith & Boucher Engineers</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>25501 west valley parkway</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>olathe ks 66061</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>direct 913 344.0036</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>fax 913 345.0617</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'><a href="http://www.smithboucher.com" target="_blank">www.smithboucher.com</a><u>
</u></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;
border-color:-moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>
equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Susan F<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, January 27, 2011 6:11 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Equest-users] DOAS in baseline</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>This is not exactly an eQUEST question but y'all have been
so helpful in the past so I'm hoping you can help here too. I'm looking
for a little clarification. It was my understanding if you had a DOAS
system that heated and cooled the outside air before delivering it to the floor
mechanical room to be combined with return air and further conditioned by the
AHU in your Proposed building that this system would NOT be modeled separately
in the Baseline. I cannot find anything in 90.1 that would regulate the
DOAS system and I'm not sure how you would model it. (I understand the
dummy zone concept for modeling DOAS but not sure that would apply to the
Baseline.)<br>
<br>
Should it be separate system in the Baseline and would it be VAV or constant
volume? And if it is a separate system what section of 90.1 would you
reference for this?<br>
<br>
<br>
Thanks in advance.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Nick:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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