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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>John and Edward – thanks very much for your input!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Up to this point I’ve been trying to address the problem
with the assumption the pool is not part of an enclosed/conditioned space. I’m
pretty sure my position below stands strong in that case.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I’d reiterate: I do feel <u>you can make a case
either way</u> regarding whether energy spent heating pool water is or is not a
process. Either you treat this heating energy as a service water heating
system, or as a process load. In the case of an enclosed/conditioned
space, you could use either approach, but either way I agree one should define and
assign the pool’s thermal mass and the heating system’s incident
internal heating load (with the correct latent/sensible fractions) to the
corresponding space. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>If the actual design for an enclosed space containing a heated
pool should have air conditioning (cooling , heating and/or dehumidification)
in addition to pool water heating system, it seems to me intuitive to model the
actual HVAC system(s) in the proposed and the appropriate Appendix G system in
the baseline model (likely using the same baseline system used elsewhere in the
building). The pool’s thermal loads/massing incident on the space
would then be present for such system(s) to react to as required.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Edward: Conditions maintained (cooling setpoints/heating
setpoints/humidity control parameters as they apply) must be maintained identical
in both baseline and proposed models when you’re discussing a conditioned
space – you’re right on, and you can find support within Table G3.1
to back you up if needed. The notion to sub-meter the pool heating loads in
a separate run for LEED reporting is only a suggestion on my part – disregard
if you don’t feel it’s necessary.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Again, I haven’t actually completed a pool model under
LEED review, but I think everyone ought to have some flexibility to model pool
heating either as a process load or as a service water heating system. The
“most right” decision would depend on the specific circumstances of
the pool’s design, but I think if I were in a reviewer’s shoes I’d
accept either approach/interpretation if well-explained & documented.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>~Nick<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><img width=119 height=37 id="Picture_x0020_1"
src="cid:image001.jpg@01CBBD34.D8ADF7E0" alt="cid:489575314@22072009-0ABB"></span><b><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E'><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>NICK CATON, E.I.T.</span></b><b><span style='font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#CC9900'>PROJECT ENGINEER<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>Smith & Boucher Engineers</span><span style='font-size:7.5pt;
color:#CC9900'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>25501 west valley parkway<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>olathe ks 66061<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>direct 913 344.0036<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>fax 913 345.0617<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><a href="www.smithboucher.com"
title="blocked::www.smithboucher.com"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>www.smithboucher.com</span></a></span><u><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:blue'> </span></u><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Eurek, John S NWO [mailto:John.S.Eurek@usace.army.mil] <br>
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2011 8:12 AM<br>
To: Mirza Sajjal; Nick Caton; Pasha Korber-Gonzalez<br>
Cc: equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
Subject: RE: [Equest-users] pool heating baseline system (UNCLASSIFIED)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Classification: UNCLASSIFIED<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Caveats: NONE<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>'Pool heating' conditions the pool space for the comfort
of the occupants.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>(Ever jumped into an unheated pool?) So I would say
it is not a process<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>load. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>"Energy consumed in support of a manufacturing,
industrial, or commercial<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>process other than conditioning spaces and maintaining
comfort and amenities<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>for the occupants of a building."<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>It would fall under that same arena as water heating for
showers.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Classification: UNCLASSIFIED<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Caveats: NONE<o:p></o:p></p>
<div style='mso-element:para-border-div;border:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;
padding:0in 0in 1.0pt 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='border:none;padding:0in'><b><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Edward Allen
[mailto:eallen@long.com] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, January 26, 2011 1:40 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Nick Caton; Dahlstrom, Aaron; Mirza Sajjal; Pasha Korber-Gonzalez<br>
<b>Cc:</b> equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Equest-users] pool heating baseline system<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>It’s unfortunate that I’ve caught onto this discussion
late, as it is right in the middle of a current tax rebate modeling project
I’m working on. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>My query (more of a confirmation really) is how are you all
handling the latent load from the pool? I’ve input it as a process
load, 100% latent. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>How do you account for the thermal mass of the pool water?
Latent heat is handled above. What about sensible effects?
I’ve entered the pool water in the “Contents” tab covering
80% of the floor area with 500 lb/ft2.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>Also, what is the group’s read on the space conditions to be
maintained in the proposed vs. budget cases? I’ve modeled them
identical in both: 85 deg F, 55% RH per ASHRAE recommendations. It
doesn’t show up on any building meters, so wouldn’t be double
counted as service water as discussed below and misc equip. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>Finally, what system is appropriate for the budget case
model? I’ve just let the compliance tool select the system, and it
chose PIU – the same as the none pool zones in the building. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.25in'><span style='font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Copperplate Gothic Bold";
color:navy'>Edward M. Allen, PE, CEM</span><b><span style='font-family:"Frutiger 65 Bold";
color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.25in'><b><span style='font-family:"Frutiger 65 Bold";color:navy'>L</span></b><b><span
style='font-family:"Frutiger 65 Bold";color:green'>O</span></b><b><span
style='font-family:"Frutiger 65 Bold";color:navy'>NG</span></b><span
style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'> </span><b><span
style='font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>Energy
Solutions</span></b><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.25in'><i><span style='font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Frutiger 65 Bold";
color:black'>Technology for Better Buildings</span></i><span style='font-size:
8.0pt;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.25in'><span style='font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>775.657.9180 office 720.217.1356
mobile 775.657.9180 fax<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.25in'><span style='font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>eallen@long.com<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>
</span><span style='color:navy'><a href="http://www.long.com/"
title="http://www.long.com/"><span style='font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>http://www.long.com</span></a></span><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Nick
Caton<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, January 25, 2011 8:38 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Dahlstrom, Aaron; Mirza Sajjal; Pasha Korber-Gonzalez<br>
<b>Cc:</b> equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] pool heating baseline system</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Well I’ve given a little extra effort =)…
I’ve flip-flopped a few times, and now feel confident of the following:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><span
style='mso-list:Ignore'>1.<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>This query boils down to this paraphrase: Does Table
G3.1.11 (Service Hot-Water Systems) or G3.1.12 (Receptacle and other loads)
apply to pool water heating?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><span
style='mso-list:Ignore'>2.<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Definitions Section 3: <b><i> </i></b><i>service water
heating</i> – heating water for domestic or commercial purposes <u>other
than space heating and process requirements</u>.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><span
style='mso-list:Ignore'>3.<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>We can strike out space heating, so we can conclude pool water
heating is either a <i><u>process energy</u></i> OR <i><u>service water heating</u></i>…
it cannot be both.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><span
style='mso-list:Ignore'>4.<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>GRAMMAR LESSON FOR ANSI/ASHRAE/IESNA - WOOHOO! <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;
mso-list:l0 level2 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>a.<span
style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Per
the definition Mirza transcribed below, pool heating is pretty clearly
“…maintaining comfort and amenities for the occupants of a
building.” <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;
mso-list:l0 level2 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>b.<span
style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>So
(clearly) pool heating energy simply [IS/IS NOT] a <i><u>process energy</u></i>,
and therefore [IS/IS NOT] a <i><u>process load</u></i>. Read that whole
definition from both angles, and you can see this definition was not crafted by
an English teacher! This doesn’t make anyone’s life easier,
but I maintain this definition can be read either way.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><span
style='mso-list:Ignore'>5.<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Where the glossary fails us, we have to look elsewhere.
Fortunately, this seems much more clear: Pool water heating must be a
form of <i>service water heating</i>, otherwise it wouldn’t be explicitly
addressed multiples times under Section 7 “SERVICE WATER
HEATING.” Clever eh =)?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>In conclusion, within the context of “do I model pool
energy under the requirements of Table G3.1.11 or G3.1.12?” <u>The
answer is clearly G3.1.11</u> because it is a variety of service hot-water
system. To extend the argument, pool water heating is NOT a process
energy and so should NOT be modeled as such (equally in both models), even if
it would save time (bummer!). I might suggest documenting the pool
heating consumptions/demands separately from domestic water heating consumption
in the LEED template.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Table G3.1.11 is agreeably crystal-clear in requiring you to use
straight electric resistance heating for the baseline pool heating
system. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>If LEED was an episode of “America’s Next Top
Model,” and the 90.1-2007 steering committee were the judges, heat-pump
pool heating strategies would be rated “Platinum-Sexy.” <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I might also watch more TV... kinda sad… ^_^<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>~Nick<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><img border=0 width=119 height=37 id="_x0000_i1026"
src="cid:image001.jpg@01CBBD34.D8ADF7E0" alt="cid:489575314@22072009-0ABB"></span><b><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E'><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>NICK CATON, E.I.T.</span></b><b><span style='font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#CC9900'>PROJECT ENGINEER<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>Smith & Boucher Engineers</span><span style='font-size:7.5pt;
color:#CC9900'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>25501 west valley parkway<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>olathe ks 66061<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>direct 913 344.0036<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>fax 913 345.0617<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><a href="www.smithboucher.com"
title="blocked::www.smithboucher.com"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>www.smithboucher.com</span></a></span><u><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:blue'> </span></u><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Dahlstrom, Aaron
[mailto:ADahlstrom@in-posse.com] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, January 25, 2011 7:59 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Mirza Sajjal; Nick Caton; Pasha Korber-Gonzalez<br>
<b>Cc:</b> equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Equest-users] pool heating baseline system<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Mirza
– <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>I agree
with your logic about the intent of the standard and its definition of
non-regulated process. This may be a prejudice that harkens back to LEED v2.1, but
if I see a regulation in 90.1 for efficiency, I assume that ASHRAE intended to
“regulate” the energy use of that category, and thus it falls on
the non-process side of things. While there may be circumstances where
“pool heating” might seem more like a process load (eg freeze
protection for an outdoor decorative fountain in a cold climate?), it seems
like the intent of 90.1 was to regulate pool heating energy usage for a large
proportion of typical pool installations.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>I think
your question re: how to interpret the wording of G3.1.11 is important. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>On the face
of App G, the standard appears to reward heat pump pool heaters, by allowing
them to compare to straight resistance heat in the baseline.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>In my
admittedly limited experience, I haven’t seen an electric resistance pool
heater, so I share your reservations about making a false comparison. (then
again … <a
href="http://www.little-giant.com/water-heating-products/pool-spa-heaters/electric-pool-spa-heaters.html">http://www.little-giant.com/water-heating-products/pool-spa-heaters/electric-pool-spa-heaters.html</a>)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>If we
can’t find help for you on this list, an “unofficial
interpretation” by the 90.1 Standards Committee might be the way to go.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>(Maybe Nick
could even slip the question in when he’s out at the winter meetings this
week ;) ?)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='line-height:150%;text-autospace:none'><b><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;line-height:150%;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:gray'>Aaron Dahlstrom , PE, LEED® AP</span></b><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;line-height:150%;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='line-height:150%;text-autospace:none'><b><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;line-height:150%;font-family:"AvantGarde Bk BT";
color:#17365D'>In P</span></b><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;line-height:
150%;font-family:"AvantGarde Bk BT";color:#619428'>o</span></b><b><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;line-height:150%;font-family:"AvantGarde Bk BT";
color:#17365D'>sse</span></b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;line-height:150%;
font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:gray'> – </span><span
style='font-size:8.0pt;line-height:150%;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:gray'>A subsidiary of</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;line-height:
150%;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:gray'> </span><b><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;line-height:150%;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:#CC0000'>AKF</span></b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;line-height:150%;
font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:gray'>| 1500 Walnut Street, Suite
1414, Philadelphia, PA 19102 </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;line-height:
150%;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='line-height:150%;text-autospace:none'><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;line-height:150%;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:gray'>d: 215-282-6753| m: 267-507-5470| In Posse: 215-282-6800| AKF:
215-735-7290</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;line-height:150%;font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:gray'>e: ADahlstrom@in-posse.com | in
posse web: <a href="http://www.in-posse.com/">www.in-posse.com</a> | akf web: <a
href="http://www.akfgroup.com/">www.akfgroup.com</a></span><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:gray'> </span><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:gray'> </span><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;color:gray'> </span><span
style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Mirza
Sajjal<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, January 25, 2011 7:36 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Nick Caton; Pasha Korber-Gonzalez<br>
<b>Cc:</b> equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] pool heating baseline system<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Pasha/Nick,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Thanks for the response.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I would assume pool space conditioning <i>and</i> pool water
heating are not process energy (?) as 90.1 defines process energy as:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>“Energy consumed in support of a manufacturing,
industrial, or commercial process other than <b>conditioning spaces and
maintaining comfort and amenities for the occupants of a building</b>.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I did notice the baseline efficiency for heat pump pool heaters
in table 7, but was trying to figure out if the system types had to be the same
in baseline and proposed since App. G mentions only energy source: “Where
the energy source is electricity, the heating method shall be electric
resistance.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Considering the savings are significant when using electric
resistance pool heating in the baseline, I want to prevent any issues I may
encounter during the LEED review process since the reviewer may have a
different interpretation/opinion.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Mirza<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Nick
Caton<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, January 25, 2011 7:05 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Pasha Korber-Gonzalez; Mirza Sajjal<br>
<b>Cc:</b> equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] pool heating baseline system<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Whether or not it’s a process load may come down to
semantics (I think you can make a case either way if you reference the 90.1
glossary terms – see <i>‘process load’ </i>and <i>‘process
energy’</i>), but I think it’s moot in a broad sense...<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>If there weren’t significant savings to be credited, then
I’d probably try to call it a process load and make each model
identical. That would be the simplest and most time efficient approach.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>However, if there are major savings using heatpumps relative to
“conventional” heating means, then even if it is a “process
load” I would pursue modeling them differently as an exceptional
calculation. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Oh, and 90.1 does define a baseline efficiency (COP) for heat
pump pool heating equipment: Take a closer look the table in chapter
7. You might also review the prescriptive pool requirements for other
means to differentiate the proposed design other than in heating
efficiency. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Best of luck! <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>~Nick<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><img border=0 width=119 height=37 id="Picture_x005f_x0020_1"
src="cid:image001.jpg@01CBBD34.D8ADF7E0" alt="cid:489575314@22072009-0ABB"></span><b><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E'><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>NICK CATON, E.I.T.</span></b><b><span style='font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#CC9900'>PROJECT ENGINEER<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>Smith & Boucher Engineers</span><span style='font-size:7.5pt;
color:#CC9900'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>25501 west valley parkway<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>olathe ks 66061<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>direct 913 344.0036<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>fax 913 345.0617<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><a href="www.smithboucher.com"
title="blocked::www.smithboucher.com"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>www.smithboucher.com</span></a></span><u><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:blue'> </span></u><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Pasha
Korber-Gonzalez<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, January 25, 2011 4:50 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Mirza Sajjal<br>
<b>Cc:</b> equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] pool heating baseline system<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Isn't the pool heating system considered as a process load
for 90.1 since it has no effect on the overall building design? It would
be exactly the same in the baseline as it is for the proposed case.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>...just a thought, although I haven't run into this scenario
with any of my sim projects.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Pasha<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 3:19 PM, Mirza Sajjal <<a
href="mailto:ms2995@gmail.com">ms2995@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Can anyone tell me what the baseline pool heating
system should be if the design calls for heat pumps? Per App. G Table
G3.1.11 the requirement is that the energy source be the same, in this case
electricity. Can we model the baseline as electric water heaters or should the
system type (heat pumps) also remain the same in the baseline since
electric resistance pool heating is unconventional? Theres a huge energy
savings difference between the two baselines and was wondering how others have
modeled this in terms of LEED.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Your opinion and insight is much appreciated.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Thanks in advance for any response.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#888888'>Mirza<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>
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<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p>
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