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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>With these ideas in mind, for assigning 2 systems to one zone. Maybe you could set your second zone up as being contained entirely within the other zone (set up as best as equest will allow for zone within a zone), this way there is a maximum amount of heat transfer happening between the two zones. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Let's say the goal is to try and see if a VAV box, in a given hour, has enough air to cool both spaces so that a dedicate system doesn't need to run to supplement it. The VAV minimum would be reached before overcooling began (although you could double the minimum airflow, assuming each zone is half of the space served by 2 systems), and once enough overcooling occurs the reheat will initiate. So, in this case there won't be much shared load between the two spaces separated by an air wall, and the dedicated system will run as well... <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Hmmm... Equest can't be entirely steady state, because iterations seem to occur to decide if certain parts of a system need to initiate or not. If equest wanted to decide whether or not to bring on a humidifier, it should first need to run the loads one time to see if the unit, given its airflow and supply temp, would lower the %rh enough to require humidification, before initiating humidification. It would need to see the final space temp after one iteration right?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>If this is the case then there would be a chance to shut off a system in one of the zones if the heat transfer, after iteration #1, is enough to satisfy the load.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='color:#1F497D'>Joe Fleming<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><i><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#333333'>E.I., LEED AP BD+C, BEMP<o:p></o:p></span></i></p><p class=MsoNormal><i><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#333333'>Mechanical Engineer II<o:p></o:p></span></i></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='color:#006363'>TLC Engineering for Architecture<br></span></b><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#006363'>Your 2030 Challenge Partner</span></b><b><span style='color:#006363'><o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'>800 Fairway Drive, Suite 250<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Deerfield Beach, FL 33441-1816<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><table class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0><tr><td valign=bottom style='padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal align=right style='text-align:right'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;color:#333333'>phone: </span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;color:#555555'><o:p></o:p></span></p></td><td valign=bottom style='padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'>954-418-9096</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p></td></tr><tr><td valign=bottom style='padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal align=right style='text-align:right'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;color:#333333'>fax: </span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;color:#555555'><o:p></o:p></span></p></td><td valign=bottom style='padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'>954-418-9296</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p></td></tr><tr><td valign=bottom style='padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal align=right style='text-align:right'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;color:#333333'>direct: </span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;color:#555555'><o:p></o:p></span></p></td><td valign=bottom style='padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'>954-418-4591</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p></td></tr><tr><td valign=bottom style='padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal align=right style='text-align:right'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;color:#333333'>website: </span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;color:#555555'><o:p></o:p></span></p></td><td valign=bottom style='padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'><a href="http://www.tlc-engineers.com/">www.tlc-engineers.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></td></tr></table><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><a href="http://www.tlc-engineers.com/"><span style='text-decoration:none'><img border=0 width=700 height=49 id="_x0000_i1026" src="cid:image002.gif@01CBBD6D.5C015FF0" alt="http://www.tlc-engineers.com/images/TLC_Sig_Loc_Block.gif"></span></a><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>David Eldridge<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, January 26, 2011 3:20 PM<br><b>To:</b> equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] What's in an Air Wall?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Although “highly-conductive” you wouldn’t necessarily assume that the space temperatures end up being identical – there is still some resistance in your example, even if very small, and the area of interface is not infinite either.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Your last example with area/volume – the heat transfer will be limited by the size and thermal conductivity of this air wall. There are also radiant and storage effects from the other surfaces in the zone that might keep the two from being in equilibrium – that said your approach may be fine as you may not have widely differing temperatures/loads. One possible tweak might be to allocate your internal gains in these two modeled spaces to load the separately modeled HVAC systems along how you think they would actually perform in the real “two-system-one-zone” space. </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>David</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><u><span style='color:black'> </span></u><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:8.0pt;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>David S. Eldridge, Jr., P.E., LEED AP BD+C, BEMP, HBDP</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='color:#244061'>Grumman/Butkus Associates</span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><u><span style='color:black'> </span></u><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div style='border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> <a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> <a href="mailto:[mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org]">[mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org]</a> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Nick Caton<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, January 26, 2011 11:49 AM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> [Equest-users] What's in an Air Wall?</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Hi everyone,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>A discussion on [bldg-sim] prompted me to bring up a topic that’s been bugging me in the “eQuest fundamentals” department… <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>I have a general understanding that eQuest does not fundamentally model airflow (specifically, convection of internal loads) between zones.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>-<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span><![endif]>The DOE-2 entry for INT-WALL-TYPE says an internal “air” partition “ …designates a non-physical interior surface with no mass (i.e., an opening between spaces) across which convection can take place.”<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>-<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span><![endif]>A wizard-generated “air” internal partition has a construction with U-factor of 2.7… very conductive.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>-<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span><![endif]> To draw a conclusion – two zones connected with an “air” partition are “connected” thermally. In practice, the internal loads in one are “combined” with the other.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>-<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span><![endif]>This means heat in one zone should travel to the other in a rapid fashion during the hourly simulation, until the space temperatures are identical between the two.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>I hope my understanding thus far is correct, because from here I have some questions that dig at what’s going on under the hood:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo4'><![if !supportLists]><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>1.<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span><![endif]>Imagine an air partition “connects” zones A and B. These zones have separate systems and separate thermostats with different setpoints. If zone A’s thermostat wants to be much warmer than zone B, is it possible the systems will “fight” each other and cause mutual unmet hours?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo4'><![if !supportLists]><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>2.<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span><![endif]>In the same setup, if Zone A is identical in geometry to Zone B, but has 2x the internal/external loads, does it follow that the system for System A will handle 2x the internal loads as System B, or are they summed and applied equally to the two systems on an hourly basis? <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo4'><![if !supportLists]><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>3.<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span><![endif]>Is the “distribution of loads behavior” affected if Systems A & B are specified with different capacities and/or airflows? <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo4'><![if !supportLists]><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>4.<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span><![endif]>If one space is larger in area/volume than the other, does that affect how the collective loads are distributed to the corresponding systems?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>I have “exploited” air partition behavior in the past to get around the “one system per zone” rule (need two RTU’s serving that space? Just make an imaginary air wall!). However I want to be sure before I continue this practice or advise others to do the same that there aren’t any major potential pitfalls in how the loads/systems are distributed/affected…<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>~Nick<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><img border=0 width=119 height=37 id="Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:image003.jpg@01CBBD6D.5C015FF0" alt="cid:489575314@22072009-0ABB"><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E'> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E'>NICK CATON, E.I.T.</span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.5pt;color:#CC9900'>PROJECT ENGINEER</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E'>Smith & Boucher Engineers</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E'>25501 west valley parkway</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E'>olathe ks 66061</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E'>direct 913 344.0036</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E'>fax 913 345.0617</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><a href="www.smithboucher.com" title="blocked::www.smithboucher.com"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>www.smithboucher.com</span></a></span><u><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:blue'> </span></u><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div></body></html>