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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">It’s unfortunate that I’ve caught onto this discussion late, as it is right in the middle of a current tax rebate modeling project I’m
working on. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">My query (more of a confirmation really) is how are you all handling the latent load from the pool? I’ve input it as a process load,
100% latent. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">How do you account for the thermal mass of the pool water? Latent heat is handled above. What about sensible effects? I’ve entered
the pool water in the “Contents” tab covering 80% of the floor area with 500 lb/ft2.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Also, what is the group’s read on the space conditions to be maintained in the proposed vs. budget cases? I’ve modeled them identical
in both: 85 deg F, 55% RH per ASHRAE recommendations. It doesn’t show up on any building meters, so wouldn’t be double counted as service water as discussed below and misc equip. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Finally, what system is appropriate for the budget case model? I’ve just let the compliance tool select the system, and it chose PIU
– the same as the none pool zones in the building. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<font size="5" color="navy" face="Copperplate Gothic Bold"><span style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Copperplate Gothic Bold";color:navy">Edward M. Allen, PE, CEM</span></font><b><font color="navy" face="Frutiger 65 Bold"><span style="font-family:"Frutiger 65 Bold";color:navy;font-weight:bold"><o:p></o:p></span></font></b></p>
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<i><font size="1" color="black" face="Frutiger 65 Bold"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Frutiger 65 Bold";color:black;font-style:
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<font size="1" color="black" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:
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<font size="1" color="black" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold">From:</span></font></b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma"> equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b><span style="font-weight:
bold">On Behalf Of
</span></b>Nick Caton<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, January 25, 2011 8:38 PM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> Dahlstrom, Aaron; Mirza Sajjal; Pasha Korber-Gonzalez<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Cc:</span></b> equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Equest-users] pool heating baseline system</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D">Well I’ve given a little extra effort =)… I’ve flip-flopped a few times, and now feel confident of the following:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="msolistparagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:
Calibri;color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">1.<font size="1" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></font></span></span></font><![endif]><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D">This query boils down to this paraphrase: Does Table G3.1.11 (Service Hot-Water Systems) or G3.1.12
(Receptacle and other loads) apply to pool water heating?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="msolistparagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:
Calibri;color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">2.<font size="1" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></font></span></span></font><![endif]><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D">Definitions Section 3:
<b><i><span style="font-weight:bold;font-style:italic"> </span></i></b><i><span style="font-style:italic">service water heating</span></i> – heating water for domestic or commercial purposes
<u>other than space heating and process requirements</u>.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="msolistparagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:
Calibri;color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">3.<font size="1" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></font></span></span></font><![endif]><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D">We can strike out space heating, so we can conclude pool water heating is either a
<i><u><span style="font-style:italic">process energy</span></u></i> OR <i><u><span style="font-style:italic">service water heating</span></u></i>… it cannot be both.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="msolistparagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:
Calibri;color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">4.<font size="1" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></font></span></span></font><![endif]><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D">GRAMMAR LESSON FOR ANSI/ASHRAE/IESNA - WOOHOO!
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="msolistparagraph" style="margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;
mso-list:l0 level2 lfo2">
<![if !supportLists]><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">a.<font size="1" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></font></span></span></font><![endif]><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:
Calibri;color:#1F497D">Per the definition Mirza transcribed below, pool heating is pretty clearly “…maintaining comfort and
amenities for the occupants of a building.” <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="msolistparagraph" style="margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;
mso-list:l0 level2 lfo2">
<![if !supportLists]><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">b.<font size="1" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></font></span></span></font><![endif]><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:
Calibri;color:#1F497D">So (clearly) pool heating energy simply [IS/IS NOT] a
<i><u><span style="font-style:italic">process energy</span></u></i>, and therefore [IS/IS NOT] a
<i><u><span style="font-style:italic">process load</span></u></i>. Read that whole definition from both angles, and you can see this definition was not crafted by an English teacher! This doesn’t make anyone’s life easier, but I maintain this definition can
be read either way.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="msolistparagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:
Calibri;color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">5.<font size="1" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></font></span></span></font><![endif]><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D">Where the glossary fails us, we have to look elsewhere. Fortunately, this seems much more clear: Pool
water heating must be a form of <i><span style="font-style:italic">service water heating</span></i>, otherwise it wouldn’t be explicitly addressed multiples times under Section 7 “SERVICE WATER HEATING.” Clever eh =)?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D">In conclusion, within the context of “do I model pool energy under the requirements of Table G3.1.11 or G3.1.12?”
<u>The answer is clearly G3.1.11</u> because it is a variety of service hot-water system. To extend the argument, pool water heating is NOT a process energy and so should NOT be modeled as such (equally in both models), even if it would save time (bummer!).
I might suggest documenting the pool heating consumptions/demands separately from domestic water heating consumption in the LEED template.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D">Table G3.1.11 is agreeably crystal-clear in requiring you to use straight electric resistance heating for the baseline pool heating
system. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D">If LEED was an episode of “<st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">America</st1:place></st1:country-region>’s Next
Top Model,” and the 90.1-2007 steering committee were the judges, heat-pump pool heating strategies would be rated “Platinum-Sexy.”
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D">I might also watch more TV... kinda sad… ^_^<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D">~Nick<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D"><img border="0" width="119" height="37" id="_x0000_i1026" src="cid:image001.jpg@01CBBCF1.94EFB9F0" alt="cid:489575314@22072009-0ABB"></span></font><b><font size="2" color="#2d4d5e" face="Stylus BT"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Stylus BT";
color:#2D4D5E;font-weight:bold"><o:p></o:p></span></font></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font size="2" color="#2d4d5e" face="Stylus BT"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Stylus BT";color:#2D4D5E;font-weight:bold"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font size="2" color="#2d4d5e" face="Stylus BT"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Stylus BT";color:#2D4D5E;font-weight:bold">NICK CATON, E.I.T.</span></font></b><b><font color="#2d4d5e" face="Stylus BT"><span style="font-family:"Stylus BT";color:#2D4D5E;font-weight:bold"><o:p></o:p></span></font></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="1" color="#cc9900" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#CC9900">PROJECT ENGINEER<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#2d4d5e" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#2D4D5E">Smith & Boucher Engineers</span></font><font size="1" color="#cc9900"><span style="font-size:
7.5pt;color:#CC9900"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#2d4d5e" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#2D4D5E">25501 west valley parkway<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on"><font size="2" color="#2d4d5e" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:#2D4D5E">olathe</span></font></st1:place></st1:City><font size="2" color="#2d4d5e" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:#2D4D5E">
ks 66061<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#2d4d5e" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#2D4D5E">direct 913 344.0036<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#2d4d5e" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#2D4D5E">fax 913 345.0617<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D"><a href="www.smithboucher.com" title="blocked::www.smithboucher.com"><font size="2"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">www.smithboucher.com</span></font></a></span></font><u><font size="2" color="blue" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:blue">
</span></font></u><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold">From:</span></font></b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma"> Dahlstrom, Aaron [mailto:ADahlstrom@in-posse.com]
<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, January 25, 2011 7:59 PM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> Mirza Sajjal; Nick Caton; Pasha Korber-Gonzalez<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Cc:</span></b> equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> RE: [Equest-users] pool heating baseline system<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Calibri">Mirza – <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Calibri"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Calibri">I agree with your logic about the intent of the standard and its definition of non-regulated process. This may be a prejudice that harkens back to LEED v2.1,
but if I see a regulation in 90.1 for efficiency, I assume that ASHRAE intended to “regulate” the energy use of that category, and thus it falls on the non-process side of things. While there may be circumstances where “pool heating” might seem more like a
process load (eg freeze protection for an outdoor decorative fountain in a cold climate?), it seems like the intent of 90.1 was to regulate pool heating energy usage for a large proportion of typical pool installations.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Calibri"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Calibri">I think your question re: how to interpret the wording of G3.1.11 is important.
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Calibri">On the face of App G, the standard appears to reward heat pump pool heaters, by allowing them to compare to straight resistance heat in the baseline.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Calibri">In my admittedly limited experience, I haven’t seen an electric resistance pool heater, so I share your reservations about making a false comparison. (then
again … <a href="http://www.little-giant.com/water-heating-products/pool-spa-heaters/electric-pool-spa-heaters.html">
http://www.little-giant.com/water-heating-products/pool-spa-heaters/electric-pool-spa-heaters.html</a>)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Calibri"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Calibri">If we can’t find help for you on this list, an “unofficial interpretation” by the 90.1 Standards Committee might be the way to go.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Calibri">(Maybe Nick could even slip the question in when he’s out at the winter meetings this week ;) ?)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Calibri"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:150%;text-autospace:none"><b><font size="1" color="gray" face="Verdana"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:150%;
font-family:Verdana;color:gray;font-weight:bold">Aaron Dahlstrom , PE, LEED® AP</span></font></b><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:
11.0pt;line-height:150%;font-family:Calibri"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:150%;text-autospace:none"><b><font size="2" color="#17365d" face="AvantGarde Bk BT"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
line-height:150%;font-family:"AvantGarde Bk BT";color:#17365D;font-weight:bold">In P</span></font></b><b><font size="2" color="#619428" face="AvantGarde Bk BT"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:150%;font-family:"AvantGarde Bk BT";
color:#619428;font-weight:bold">o</span></font></b><b><font size="2" color="#17365d" face="AvantGarde Bk BT"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
line-height:150%;font-family:"AvantGarde Bk BT";color:#17365D;font-weight:bold">sse</span></font></b><font size="1" color="gray" face="Verdana"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:150%;
font-family:Verdana;color:gray">
– </span></font><font size="1" color="gray" face="Verdana"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:150%;font-family:Verdana;
color:gray">A subsidiary of</span></font><font size="1" color="gray" face="Verdana"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:150%;font-family:Verdana;color:gray">
</span></font><b><font size="1" color="#cc0000" face="Verdana"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:
150%;font-family:Verdana;color:#CC0000;font-weight:bold">AKF</span></font></b><font size="1" color="gray" face="Verdana"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:150%;
font-family:Verdana;color:gray">|
<st1:address w:st="on"><st1:Street w:st="on">1500 Walnut Street, Suite 1414</st1:Street>,
<st1:City w:st="on">Philadelphia</st1:City>, <st1:State w:st="on">PA</st1:State> <st1:PostalCode w:st="on">
19102</st1:PostalCode></st1:address> </span></font><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
line-height:150%;font-family:Calibri"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:150%;text-autospace:none"><font size="1" color="gray" face="Verdana"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:150%;
font-family:Verdana;color:gray">d: 215-282-6753| m: 267-507-5470| In Posse: 215-282-6800| AKF: 215-735-7290</span></font><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:150%;font-family:Calibri"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><font size="1" color="gray" face="Verdana"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:gray">e: ADahlstrom@in-posse.com | in posse web:
<a href="http://www.in-posse.com/">www.in-posse.com</a> | akf web: <a href="http://www.akfgroup.com/">
www.akfgroup.com</a></span></font><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><font size="1" color="gray" face="Verdana"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:gray"> </span></font><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><font size="1" color="gray" face="Verdana"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:gray"> </span></font><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="1" color="gray" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;color:gray"> </span></font><font face="Calibri"><span style="font-family:Calibri"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold">From:</span></font></b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma"> equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b><span style="font-weight:
bold">On Behalf Of
</span></b>Mirza Sajjal<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, January 25, 2011 7:36 PM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> Nick Caton; Pasha Korber-Gonzalez<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Cc:</span></b> equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Equest-users] pool heating baseline system<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D">Pasha/Nick,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D">Thanks for the response.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D">I would assume pool space conditioning
<i><span style="font-style:italic">and</span></i> pool water heating are not process energy (?) as 90.1 defines process energy as:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D">“Energy consumed in support of a manufacturing, industrial, or commercial process other than
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">conditioning spaces and maintaining comfort and amenities for the occupants of a building</span></b>.”<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D">I did notice the baseline efficiency for heat pump pool heaters in table 7, but was trying to figure out if the system types
had to be the same in baseline and proposed since App. G mentions only energy source: “Where the energy source is electricity, the heating method shall be electric resistance.”<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D">Considering the savings are significant when using electric resistance pool heating in the baseline, I want to prevent any issues
I may encounter during the LEED review process since the reviewer may have a different interpretation/opinion.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D">Mirza<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold">From:</span></font></b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma"> equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b><span style="font-weight:
bold">On Behalf Of
</span></b>Nick Caton<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, January 25, 2011 7:05 PM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> Pasha Korber-Gonzalez; Mirza Sajjal<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Cc:</span></b> equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Equest-users] pool heating baseline system<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D">Whether or not it’s a process load may come down to semantics (I think you can make a case either way if you reference the 90.1
glossary terms – see <i><span style="font-style:italic">‘process load’ </span></i>and
<i><span style="font-style:italic">‘process energy’</span></i>), but I think it’s moot in a broad sense...<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D">If there weren’t significant savings to be credited, then I’d probably try to call it a process load and make each model identical.
That would be the simplest and most time efficient approach.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D">However, if there are major savings using heatpumps relative to “conventional” heating means, then even if it is a “process load”
I would pursue modeling them differently as an exceptional calculation. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D">Oh, and 90.1 does define a baseline efficiency (COP) for heat pump pool heating equipment: Take a closer look the table in chapter
7. You might also review the prescriptive pool requirements for other means to differentiate the proposed design other than in heating efficiency.
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D">Best of luck!
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D">~Nick<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D"><img border="0" width="119" height="37" id="Picture_x005f_x0020_1" src="cid:image001.jpg@01CBBCF1.94EFB9F0" alt="cid:489575314@22072009-0ABB"></span></font><b><font size="2" color="#2d4d5e" face="Stylus BT"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font size="2" color="#2d4d5e" face="Stylus BT"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Stylus BT";color:#2D4D5E;font-weight:bold">NICK CATON, E.I.T.</span></font></b><b><font color="#2d4d5e" face="Stylus BT"><span style="font-family:"Stylus BT";color:#2D4D5E;font-weight:bold"><o:p></o:p></span></font></b></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#2d4d5e" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#2D4D5E">Smith & Boucher Engineers</span></font><font size="1" color="#cc9900"><span style="font-size:
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#2d4d5e" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#2D4D5E">25501 west valley parkway<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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</span></font></u><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold">From:</span></font></b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma"> equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b><span style="font-weight:
bold">On Behalf Of
</span></b>Pasha Korber-Gonzalez<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, January 25, 2011 4:50 PM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> Mirza Sajjal<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Cc:</span></b> equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Equest-users] pool heating baseline system<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt">Isn't the pool heating system considered as a process load for 90.1 since it has no effect on the overall building design? It would be exactly the same in the baseline
as it is for the proposed case.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt">...just a thought, although I haven't run into this scenario with any of my sim projects.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt">Pasha<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt"><br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt">On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 3:19 PM, Mirza Sajjal <<a href="mailto:ms2995@gmail.com">ms2995@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt">Can anyone tell me what the baseline pool heating system should be if the design calls for heat pumps? Per App. G Table G3.1.11 the requirement is that the energy source
be the same, in this case electricity. Can we model the baseline as electric water heaters or should the system type (heat pumps) also remain the same in the baseline since electric resistance pool heating is unconventional? Theres a huge energy savings difference
between the two baselines and was wondering how others have modeled this in terms of LEED.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt">Your opinion and insight is much appreciated.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt">Thanks in advance for any response.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="#888888" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#888888">Mirza<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:
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