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<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>What a pain. =(<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Matt: <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>If the “coil upsizing factor”
for altitude (1.08 in your example below?) is not derived from the site
altitude as entered under ‘site properties,’ a much easier solution might be to
identify where else the altitude is being from and entering a zero there… The
site properties dialog pulls it from the weather file, right?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>DOE2 / eQuest developers: <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Is there any feasible possibility of adding an <u>option</u> in
a future release/patch to turn altitude adjustments on/off? This might
logically be located adjacent to the altitude input in the Site Properties
dialog (I’d vote for default = off).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>~Nick<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><img width=119 height=37 id="Picture_x0020_1"
src="cid:image001.jpg@01CBB8D6.6253EAD0" alt="cid:489575314@22072009-0ABB"></span><b><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E'><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>NICK CATON, E.I.T.</span></b><b><span style='font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#CC9900'>PROJECT ENGINEER<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>Smith & Boucher Engineers</span><span style='font-size:7.5pt;
color:#CC9900'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>25501 west valley parkway<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>olathe ks 66061<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>direct 913 344.0036<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>fax 913 345.0617<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><a href="www.smithboucher.com"
title="blocked::www.smithboucher.com"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>www.smithboucher.com</span></a></span><u><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:blue'> </span></u><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
MattDubrovich@Eaton.com [mailto:MattDubrovich@Eaton.com] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, January 20, 2011 6:55 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> cmg750@gmail.com; Nick Caton<br>
<b>Cc:</b> equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org; ktupper@rmi.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Equest-users] Does eQUEST derate equipment for altitude?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Unfortunately
I think it might be more complicated than that; I wish it wasn’t. I have
an old printout of an eQuest/DOE2 document called “Sizing Air-Side HVAC
Systems” which steps through the calculation. I haven’t been able to
figure out where I printed it from (help file?, dictionary? engineers
manual?). <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>My
take is that eQuest sizes coils based on sea level airflow. At the end of
the calculation it simply multiples the needed sea level airflow by the
altitude factor to account for altitude effects. Per Carol’s email,
eQuest assumes any user entered flows are at sea level. This is
frustrating because plans usually show airflows at site altitude, not sea
level. We’ve tried Nick’s work-around which is to change the altitude to
0 and enter airflows per the drawings. This works on the airflow side but
not the coil side. The coils are sized using the entered airflow x 1.08
so eQuest creates coils that are larger than what you actually have. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>What
seems to be more correct is to keep the altitude specified and divide every
airflow you enter into the model by the altitude factor. If you’re in
Denver and want to model a 10,000 CFM fan, enter 10,000/1.21 into the supply
CFM input. eQuest takes that number and multiplies it by 1.21.
Every input with a “CFM” must be adjusted including exhaust, CFM/SF, etc.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Matt
Dubrovich, PE, CEM, BEMP <br>
</span></b><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Energy Solutions Group</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Carol
Gardner<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, January 20, 2011 1:22 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Nick Caton<br>
<b>Cc:</b> equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org; Kendra Tupper<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Does eQUEST derate equipment for altitude?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div style='margin-left:.5in'>
<p class=MsoBodyText><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'>Nick/Kendra,</span><span
style='font-family:"Tms Rmn","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoBodyText><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'>The altitude
factor effects the supply air and the outside air. The write up below suggests
that one calculate both supply and outside air at sea level and then apply the
altitude factor to it. In real life, however, the design engineer is
calculating and specifying supply and outside air cfm that is already adjusted
for the altitude and the altitude factor should simply be set at 1.0 in eQUEST.</span><span
style='font-family:"Tms Rmn","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoBodyText><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'>The excerpts below
discuss the areas of eQUEST impacted by the altitude factor:</span><span
style='font-family:"Tms Rmn","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoBodyText><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'>N</span><span
style='font-family:"Tms Rmn","serif"'>ote: the quantities in this report (SV-A)
have been adjusted for <span style='color:white;background:#316AC5'>altitude</span>
even though DOE-2 requires that any flows you enter in SYSTEMS be at sea level.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Tms Rmn","serif"'>1.
</span>SUPPLY FLOW<br>
is the calculated or user-specified supply flow for each zone. Only if
you have specified a value for the ASSIGNED-FLOW keyword in the ZONE command
will the value here correspond to your input. The ZONE keywords AIR-CHANGES/HR
and FLOW/AREA will be accepted by SYSTEMS only if they are consistent with the
user-supplied HEATING-CAPACITY and COOLING-CAPACITY and are equivalent to a
flow larger than that of the exhaust from or the ventilation to the zone. The <span
style='color:white;background:#316AC5'>ALTITUDE FACTOR</span> will be applied.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoListNumber style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Tms Rmn","serif"'>5.
</span>OUTSIDE AIR FLOW<br>
reflects the user-specified outside air quantity entered at the zone
level. If OUTSIDE-AIR-FLOW is specified, its value is multiplied by the <span
style='color:white;background:#316AC5'>ALTITUDE FACTOR</span> and reported
here. Otherwise the reported value is the maximum of the flow-equivalent
values of OA-CHANGES and OA-FLOW/PER, multiplied by <span style='color:white;
background:#316AC5'>ALTITUDE FACTOR</span>. For the actual amount of
outside air delivered to the zone for central systems, see OUTSIDE AIR RATIO
above.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 10:49 AM, Nick Caton <<a
href="mailto:ncaton@smithboucher.com">ncaton@smithboucher.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Kenda,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>I’m curious as to whether you received
any responses to the query below.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>I have incorporated a practice of
manually setting the site altitude in my eQuest models to “0,” because (1) as
designers we do not specify equipment with CFM’s at sea level, it is already
“corrected” for altitude in this sense, and (2) those who review models tend to
miss the significance of the altitude factor in the SV-A reports and complain
of incorrectly entered airflow rates.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>I don’t know if this constitutes a “best
practice,” but I know it is common to a number of the regular contributors to
these lists besides myself. As it stands, current standards (90.1-2007)
don’t have us “de-rate” or otherwise adjust required minimum SEER/EER values
for altitude… so inversely it seem appropriate to remove the altitude variable
when modeling for a performance rating… thoughts?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>~Nick</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:
0in'><img border=0 width=119 height=37 id="_x0000_i1025"
src="cid:image002.jpg@01CBB8D6.6253EAD0"
alt="Image removed by sender. cid:489575314@22072009-0ABB"></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#2D4D5E'> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#2D4D5E'>NICK CATON, E.I.T.</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:7.5pt;color:#CC9900'>PROJECT ENGINEER</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E'>Smith & Boucher Engineers</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E'>25501 west valley parkway</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E'>olathe ks 66061</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E'>direct 913 344.0036</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E'>fax 913 345.0617</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><a href="http://www.smithboucher.com/"
target="_blank" title="blocked::www.smithboucher.com"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>www.smithboucher.com</span></a></span><u><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:blue'> </span></u><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <a
href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org"
target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of
</b>Kendra Tupper<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, September 02, 2010 1:53 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Equest-users] Does eQUEST derate equipment for altitude?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>All,<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I'm
trying to get clarification on exactly how eQUEST handles the altitude above
sea level that is entered in Site Parameters. My understanding is this affects
the airflow sizing calculations for cfm, but does not change the hourly air
density for all calculations. If that is correct, then the altitude only
corrects the cfms at the zone and system level, but does not derate equipment
efficiencies. So, if you were to enter the altitude above sea level, you should
then enter your airflows at sea level, but enter all
equipment efficiencies at the derated conditions for that altitude.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Is
that correct?<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Kendra
Tupper, PE, LEED AP<br>
Senior Consultant<br>
Built Environment Team<br>
<br>
Rocky Mountain Institute | T 303-567-8641 | F
303-245-7213 | <a href="http://www.rmi.org/" target="_blank">www.rmi.org</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<br>
-- <br>
Carol Gardner PE<o:p></o:p></p>
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