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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Fred:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>I imagine the key question, like all the others, is whether the garage is enclosed and conditioned (or semi-heated).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>If it’s unconditioned and open to ambient, then its walls do not count as part of the exterior envelope.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>If it’s enclosed and conditioned, then its walls do count as part of the exterior envelope.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>I could also imagine a situation where a garage was enclosed and had no heating / cooling system, but it was adjacent to conditioned space, in a way that made it an indirectly conditioned space. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Probably the most helpful resource I’ve found when trying to make these decisions is the ASHRAE User’s Manual discussion of spaces and envelopes (pp 5-2 and 5-3 etc from the 2004 User Manual). Making the determination about indirect conditioning would require a careful parsing of where the insulation is and the overall relative u-a heat transfer factors between the enclosed spaces and the potentially indirectly conditioned space. This is more fully described in the definition of conditioned space in the standard. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Basically, the key to this is figuring out what spaces in your building are conditioned and semi-heated, then drawing the line of the “envelope” around them, as per the User Manual. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>What’s in the envelope then becomes the basis for the window to wall calculation.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='line-height:150%;text-autospace:none'><b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;line-height:150%;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:gray'>Aaron Dahlstrom , PE, LEED® AP</span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='line-height:150%;text-autospace:none'><b><span style='font-family:"AvantGarde Bk BT","sans-serif";color:#17365D'>In P</span></b><b><span style='font-family:"AvantGarde Bk BT","sans-serif";color:#619428'>o</span></b><b><span style='font-family:"AvantGarde Bk BT","sans-serif";color:#17365D'>sse</span></b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;line-height:150%;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:gray'> – </span><span style='font-size:8.0pt;line-height:150%;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:gray'>A subsidiary of</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;line-height:150%;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:gray'> </span><b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;line-height:150%;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#CC0000'>AKF</span></b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;line-height:150%;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:gray'>| 1500 Walnut Street, Suite 1414, Philadelphia, PA 19102 </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='line-height:150%;text-autospace:none'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;line-height:150%;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:gray'>d: 215-282-6753| m: 267-507-5470| In Posse: 215-282-6800| AKF: 215-735-7290</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:gray'>e: ADahlstrom@in-posse.com | in posse web: <a href="http://www.in-posse.com/">www.in-posse.com</a> | akf web: <a href="http://www.akfgroup.com/">www.akfgroup.com</a></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:gray'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:gray'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:gray'> </span><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Fred Betz<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, January 18, 2011 11:14 PM<br><b>To:</b> Bishop, Bill; Nick Caton; Richard Auffermann; bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] ASHRAE 90.1 - Appendix G - Parking Garages<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>A semi-related question on parking garages. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>If the parking garage is part of a high rise, does the surface area count towards the overall window to wall ratio calculation?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Please advise,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Fred<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><table class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellpadding=0 width=474 style='width:355.5pt'><tr><td width=167 valign=top style='width:125.25pt;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#660000;text-transform:uppercase'>Fred Betz</span></b><b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;color:#333333'> </span></b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;color:#333333'>PhD., LEED AP <br></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#333333;text-transform:uppercase'>Sustainable Systems Analyst</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;color:#333333'><o:p></o:p></span></p></td><td width=10 valign=top style='width:7.5pt;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;color:#333333'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></td><td width=283 valign=top style='width:212.25pt;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;color:#660000'>AEI</span></b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;color:#333333'> | AFFILIATED ENGINEERS, INC. <br>5802 Research Park Blvd. | Madison, WI 53719<br><br></span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;color:#660000'>P: 608.236.1175 | F: 608.238.2614</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;color:#333333'> <br></span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;color:#660000'><a href="mailto:fbetz@aeieng.com"><span style='color:#660000;text-decoration:none'>fbetz@aeieng.com</span></a> | <b><a href="http://www.aeieng.com/"><span style='color:#660000;text-decoration:none'>www.aeieng.com</span></a></b></span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;color:#333333'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></td></tr></table><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Bishop, Bill [mailto:wbishop@pathfinder-ea.com] <br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, January 18, 2011 9:16 AM<br><b>To:</b> Nick Caton; Richard Auffermann; bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] ASHRAE 90.1 - Appendix G - Parking Garages<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>While parking garages may not be considered “spaces” per ASHRAE, I think lighting should still be modeled differently for baseline and proposed per Appendix G, and not considered a process load. “Lighting power for parking garages and building facades shall be modeled” per Table G3.1, and baseline lighting is determined per Section 9.2, where values for parking garage lighting power appear in both the Building Area and Space-by-Space Tables. You could attach these (different) lighting loads directly to a meter, as Nick suggests, if you don’t model the parking garage as a space in the model.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>~Bill<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Franklin Gothic Medium Cond","sans-serif";color:black'>William Bishop, PE, BEMP, LEED<sup>®</sup> AP </span></b><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Franklin Gothic Medium Cond","sans-serif";color:#006600'>|</span></b><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Franklin Gothic Medium Cond","sans-serif";color:black'> Pathfinder Engineers & Architects LLP<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Mechanical Engineer<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:5.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shapetype id="_x0000_t75" coordsize="21600,21600" o:spt="75" o:preferrelative="t" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" filled="f" stroked="f">
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</v:shape><![endif]--><![if !vml]><span style='mso-ignore:vglayout;position:absolute;z-index:-1;margin-left:367px;margin-top:17px;width:60px;height:58px'><img width=60 height=58 src="cid:image001.jpg@01CBB7C2.1E7BCF40" v:shapes="_x0000_s1026"></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>134 South Fitzhugh Street</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;color:navy'> </span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>Rochester, NY 14608</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;color:navy'><br></span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>T: (585) 325-6004 </span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Ext. 114</span><span style='color:navy'> </span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>F: (585) 325-6005</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><a href="mailto:wbishop@pathfinder-ea.com">wbishop@pathfinder-ea.com</a> <a href="http://www.pathfinder-ea.com/">www.pathfinder-ea.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:18.0pt;font-family:Webdings;color:green'>P</span><span style='color:green'> </span><span style='font-size:7.5pt;color:green'>Sustainability – the forest AND the trees.</span><span style='font-size:18.0pt;font-family:Webdings;color:green'> P </span><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:green'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><hr size=2 width="100%" align=center></span></div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Nick Caton<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, January 17, 2011 6:07 PM<br><b>To:</b> Richard Auffermann; bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] ASHRAE 90.1 - Appendix G - Parking Garages</span><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#002060'>These definitions came up during review of one of my recent LEED projects. For future reference, 90.1 questions may be seen by a group more keen to respond if you post to the [bldg-rate] list.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#002060'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#002060'>I've got a definite position if you'd like to hear:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#002060'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#002060'>1. As you point out, per the definition of "<b><i>unconditioned space</i></b>," parking garages are "…<u>not considered enclosed spaces</u>." Whether in design it's actually conditioned or not has no bearing on this statement.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#002060'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#002060'>2. All of the definitions for space classifications, and indeed the definition for "<b><i>space</i></b>," start with "an <u>enclosed space</u>..." Therefore no parking garage can be considered "<b><i>conditioned</i></b>" or "<b><i>semiheated</i></b>," or even as a "<b><i>space</i></b>." <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#002060'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#002060'>3. This also means by extension (re: section 5.1.2): There are no envelope requirements for parking garages, as they are not "<b><i>spaces</i></b>" of any classification.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#002060'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#002060'>If you reject this approach and instead assert a parking garage can be a "<b><i>conditioned space</i></b>," you'd be forced down a path of assigning identical heating/cooling systems to parking garage spaces in both proposed and baseline models, per Table G3.1.1.b, regardless of whether it's actually conditioned or not. Things might get hairy if you're only heating or only cooling (I believe the other would need to match the baseline serving the rest of the floor/building, as may apply). I'd only suggest that requiring heating/cooling of parking garages in all climates seems odd for an energy efficiency standard - you'd have to explain that one to me ;).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#002060'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#002060'>If you do have heating and/or cooling for a parking garage design, I'd personally stick with points #1/#2 above and simply model such energies as a process load alongside any mechanical ventilation systems, identical in both models. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#002060'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#002060'>I personally use eQuest, and prefer to model parking garages as simply as a series of building shades with a series of process/lighting loads attached directly to the meter.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#002060'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#002060'>All this is my take on the situation. I think it’s pretty defensible, but there may have been CIR’s I’m unaware of to the contrary – not that precedent matters anymore...<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#002060'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#002060'>Hope that helps you and others,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#002060'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#002060'>~Nick<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#002060'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><img border=0 width=119 height=37 id="Picture_x005f_x0020_1" src="cid:image002.jpg@01CBB7C2.1E7BCF40" alt="cid:489575314@22072009-0ABB"><b><span style='font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E'><o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E'>NICK CATON, E.I.T.</span></b><b><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E'><o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.5pt;color:#CC9900'>PROJECT ENGINEER<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E'>Smith & Boucher Engineers</span><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#CC9900'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E'>25501 west valley parkway<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E'>olathe ks 66061<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E'>direct 913 344.0036<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E'>fax 913 345.0617<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><a href="www.smithboucher.com" title="blocked::www.smithboucher.com"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>www.smithboucher.com</span></a></span><u><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:blue'> </span></u><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>-----Original Message-----<br>From: bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Richard Auffermann<br>Sent: Monday, January 17, 2011 3:44 PM<br>To: bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br>Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] ASHRAE 90.1 - Appendix G - Parking Garages<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>I have a questions about the modeling of Parking Garages for ASHRAE 90.1 Appendix G energy model<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>As I was looking up the definition of a conditioned and semi-heated space in Section 3 of ASHRAE 90.1 I noticed that under the definition of an "unconditioned space" it states that "Crawlspaces, attics, and parking garages with natural or mechanical ventilation are not considered enclosed spaces." In addition the definition of "ventilation" is "the process of supplying or removing air by natural or mechanical means to or from any space. Such air is not required to have been conditioned." Since the air is not required to be conditioned then the air can or cannot be conditioned, does that mean that any parking garage conditioned or unconditioned is not considered an enclosed space? If that is true then how do you model a parking garage since all spaces are defined as being enclosed?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>Richard Auffermann<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>Design Engineer<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>DAGHER ENGINEERING, PLLC<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>29 Broadway, New York, NY 10006<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>T. 212.480.2591 x122<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>F. 212.480.2654<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>rauffermann@dagherengineering.com<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>www.dagherengineering.com<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>Save Trees, Consider the Environment. Please print only when necessary.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>This email and any attachments may contain confidential or proprietary information and use or distribution is strictly prohibited. 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