Nick,<div><br></div><div>Great input. I am curious how deletion of atria zones in ddedit compares to the multi-level space zone characteristic option while you are creating geometry. There is an allowance for gain assignment to only zone-lower portion.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Arpan</div><div><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 2:04 PM, Nick Caton <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:ncaton@smithboucher.com">ncaton@smithboucher.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Hi Chris,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Some running thoughts you might consider – all this in
concert might get the job done, in any case it’s what I’d try first:</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"><span>-<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Varying “floorplates”/zoning for each floor means
you need unique shells per floor, which means you can’t use any of the “open-to-above/below”
approaches to making an atrium with the wizards. That simplifies the
discussion somewhat: you’ll need to define this atrium somehow “manually.”</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"><span>-<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">I would draw out the “catwalk corridors” (assuming
they’re covered and separately conditioned) on their respective shell-floors.
If they’re open to the atrium I’d ignore them entirely.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"><span>-<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">I would finish everything up in the wizards, and upon entering
detailed mode delete every created space/zone that’s part of the “atrium,”
excepting the top level’s, which should include any roof/skylight
surfaces and be retained. Delete any child surfaces associated with these
atrium zones excepting any interior partitions to the perimeter zones –
if those exist, move the interior partitions to be a child component of the
appropriate perimeter zone first before deleting the atrium zone. You
might be above to avoid this scenario in the wizards by defining the atrium
zones LAST at the custom zone definition dialogs for each shell… not sure
but worth a shot.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"><span>-<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">I would modify the space geometries (volume) and its internal
loads (# of people should account for the catwalks if they’re open) to
match the full volume of the atrium</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"><span>-<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Assign a SUM system as a placeholder to the atrium – goal being
to have all its loads handled by the systems serving the perimeter spaces </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"><span>-<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">I would use the 2D view of each shell to modify all internal
walls “open” to the atrium in the actual design to be of type
“AIR,” and to simultaneously ensure their parent space is associated
to the large, common atrium space. I <u>think</u> this will correctly tie
the atrium’s internal loads to the others thermally… this is why we
took care to keep those and not delete them along with the wizard-generated
atrium spaces.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"><span>-<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">I would use the “DIRECT” option for the HVAC systems’
return air path, rather than the plenum/duct options – I <u>think</u> this
will indirectly ensure the heat gains/losses of any atrium skylights/roofs and
the collective internal heat gains in the atrium find their way into the return
air stream</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">I can’t say 100% whether this is all you’d need to
do, but it’s a game plan I would start with. To make a comment regarding
accuracy: It’s probably fair to say eQuest, which doesn’t
model complex CFD on an hourly basis, may not be as accurate in any end-case as
some more costly software options may be for a large atrium as you’re
describing. This approach should be sufficient however for getting into
the right ballpark, provided those “<u>think</u>” items above hold
true (you might want to hold off for others’ input).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Best of luck – sounds like an interesting project to say
the least =)!</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">~Nick</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">PS: I’ve never been compensated for my advice on
these lists, and I’m not about to start asking, but neither have I taken
on any liability or promise of availability as a formal instructor...
That said, I wouldn’t go home and cry myself to sleep if someone found
anything valuable enough to compensate ^_^.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"><img width="119" height="37" src="?ui=2&ik=8d56e79bd6&view=att&th=12d8657cfaf09147&attid=0.0.1&disp=emb&zw" alt="cid:489575314@22072009-0ABB"></span><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#2D4D5E"></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#2D4D5E"> </span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#2D4D5E">NICK CATON, E.I.T.</span></b><b><span style="color:#2D4D5E"></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;color:#CC9900">PROJECT ENGINEER</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E">Smith & Boucher Engineers</span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;color:#CC9900"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E">25501 west valley parkway</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E">olathe ks 66061</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E">direct 913 344.0036</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E">fax 913 345.0617</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"><a href="http://www.smithboucher.com" title="blocked::www.smithboucher.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:blue">www.smithboucher.com</span></a></span><u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:blue"> </span></u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt">
<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Chris Jones<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, January 14, 2011 1:21 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a></span></p><div class="im"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Advanced Level Equest Classes</div><p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The topic I consider advanced is modelling different floor
plate shapes on each floor - with a multi-storey atrium in the middle.
The atrium has corridor catwalks for crossing from one side of the building to
another. Supply air is transferred into the atrium from the surrounding
spaces - the atrium is a return air plenum for multiple air handlers. <br></p><div><div></div><div class="h5">
<br>
I would gladly pay for a step by step tutorial on setting up the geometry for
such a building.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</div></div><p></p><div><div></div><div class="h5">
<p class="MsoNormal">I’ve been in discussions with those who make a
business of eQuest/DOE2 instruction regarding this issue… I think a major
reason we don’t see many ‘advanced’ classes is: it would be
very hard to develop a rubric/syllabus for an ‘advanced’ group of
learners as it would seem there aren’t many ‘advanced’ topics
that aren’t extremely system/project-specific (therefore seemingly of
little interest to a group of learners at large). <br>
<br>
One exception that comes to mind that would probably be of common interest
might be the evaluation and creation of chiller & heatpump performance
curves – that skillset is frankly tough to self-learn (it took me a long
while and multiple projects)… <br>
<br>
As an aside: I might also cite a real-world experience where a local rep
for Carrier hosted an event that included discussion/instruction for a single,
narrow ‘advanced’ eQuest topic: geothermal well-field design using
eQuest/DOE2. The room was <u>packed*</u>! I hope more equipment
reps in time will recognize the value and potential draw when advanced eQuest
topic instruction is offered, even if only for a very narrow sort of
system/topic.<br>
<br>
If you really would like formal, ‘advanced’ instruction, you might
be best-advised to come up with a list of topics you want instruction/guidance
on (make your own personal rubric), and share that list either publicly on the
lists or directly with those who offer training services – you may be
able to then filter out who is able and is willing to teach you some or all of
your desired instruction individually, and at what cost. <br>
<br>
~Nick<br>
<br>
* I would be remiss to not mention Anthony Hardman (frequent contributor to
these lists) provided that instruction, and it was excellent.<br>
</p>
<p style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
Chris Jones<br>
14 Oneida Avenue<br>
Toronto, ON M5J 2E3.<br>
Tel. 416-203-7465<br>
Fax. 416-946-1005</p>
</div></div></div>
</div>
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