<div>Joe,</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I would agree with your approach. If GBCI is the one referencing the CIR, then I also would expect they would allow you to reference that same CIR for your project...otherwise they shouldn't have mentioned it to you.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Also, it is correct that only hard-wired lighting should be represented. THere is just too much human variable that will plug lamps into every outlet in the walls, thus increasing the non-installed lighting power. This is thier argument.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Although it might not offer you formal reference for your situation, you might also look at ASHRAE STandard 90.2, which is the energy standard for low-rise and residentail buildings. Maybe you will find something enlightening in there... You might also have a good argument if you can reference how Title-24 and California accept residential LPD in thier models and modeling guidelines.<br>
</div>
<div>Good luck and be cautious, through my experience I've found that the GBCI reviewers are typically not more experieneced than we the simulators. Remember all they do is review simulation output, they don't always have the experience in building the models under the contstraints that we are under as design simulators. It is our purpose as simulators to represent real-life as best as possible. It is GBCI's purpose to deny our simulation approaches if it doesn't follow <u>thier</u> rules for simulation. (this is only my opinion from experience.)</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Pasha</div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div><br> </div>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 10:31 AM, Joe Snider <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:joe@sequil.com">joe@sequil.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d">Hi Bill,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d">Thanks for the response. That is actually exactly what we did – and USGBC rejected it citing a LEED NC 2.2 CIR, even though this is a LEED 2009 project and they are saying old CIRs are not applicable to new projects anymore. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d">Their only direction is to plug in 1.1 w / Sf for both sides of the equation. However, the CIR they reference opens the door for exceptional calculations, with good justification. What could be more justified than using the 1.1 w / SF that ASHRAE has for similar spaces?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d">It is a bit confusing because there seems to be an implication that somewhere in ASHRAE it dictates using the same numbers for proposed and baseline for hard-wired lighting in dwelling units. We can’t find any direction to that effect anywhere, which it seems would leave it open to interpretation.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d">At this time we are operating under the assumption that we can use the same CIR they referenced, and therefore use exceptional calcs. Unless anyone else has any thoughts….</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d">Take care,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d">Joe</span></p>
<div class="im">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d"> </span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #948a54; FONT-SIZE: 8.5pt">---</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #948a54; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">Joe Snider, AIA, LEED AP</span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="COLOR: #948a54; FONT-SIZE: 8.5pt"> </span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="COLOR: #948a54; FONT-SIZE: 8.5pt">SEQUIL Systems, Inc</span></b><span style="COLOR: #948a54; FONT-SIZE: 8.5pt">.</span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span style="COLOR: #948a54; FONT-SIZE: 8.5pt">high performance sustainable structures</span></i></b><b><i><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></span></i></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #948a54; FONT-SIZE: 8pt"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #948a54; FONT-SIZE: 8pt">1 SE 4th Ave, Suite 205</span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #948a54; FONT-SIZE: 8pt">Delray Beach, FL 33483</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #948a54; FONT-SIZE: 8pt">t: 561.921.0900</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #948a54; FONT-SIZE: 8pt">f: 561.208.6090</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #948a54; FONT-SIZE: 8pt"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #948a54; FONT-SIZE: 8pt"><a href="http://www.sequil.com/" target="_blank">www.SEQUIL.com</a></span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</span></b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Bishop, Bill [mailto:<a href="mailto:wbishop@pathfinder-ea.com" target="_blank">wbishop@pathfinder-ea.com</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, December 08, 2010 9:26 AM
<div class="im"><br><b>To:</b> Joe Snider; <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br></div><b>Subject:</b> RE: [Equest-users] dwelling unit / residential LPDs</span>
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<div class="h5">
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Joe,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">The dwelling units exception in Appendix G applies to “spaces in which lighting systems are connected via receptacles and are not shown or provided for on building plans.” You say you’ve worked hard to reduce lighting energy use, so presumably, you’ve designed the lighting for the spaces and it appears on the plans. Therefore, you are justified in using your actual lighting design for the proposed building model, and the LPD value for the baseline, which should be 1.1 W/ft<sup>2</sup> for living quarters per Table 9.6.1.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Regards,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Bill</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">William Bishop, PE, BEMP, LEED<sup>®</sup> AP </span></b><b><span style="COLOR: #006600; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">|</span></b><b><span style="COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </span></b><b><span style="COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Pathfinder Engineers & Architects LLP</span></b><b><span style="COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">Mechanical Engineer</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 5pt"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="MARGIN-TOP: 17px; MIN-HEIGHT: 58px; WIDTH: 60px; MARGIN-LEFT: 367px"><img width="60" height="58"></span><span style="COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">134 South Fitzhugh Street</span><span style="COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"> </span><span style="COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">Rochester, NY 14608</span><span style="COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><br>
</span><span style="COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">T: (585) 325-6004 </span><span style="COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">Ext. 114</span><span style="COLOR: navy"> </span><span style="COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">F: (585) 325-6005</span><span style="COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><a href="mailto:wbishop@pathfinder-ea.com" target="_blank">wbishop@pathfinder-ea.com</a> </span><span style="COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><a href="http://www.pathfinder-ea.com/" target="_blank">www.pathfinder-ea.com</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Webdings; COLOR: green; FONT-SIZE: 18pt">P</span><span style="COLOR: green"> </span><span style="COLOR: green; FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt">Sustainability – the forest AND the trees.</span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Webdings; COLOR: green; FONT-SIZE: 18pt"> P </span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; COLOR: green; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</span></b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Nick Caton<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, December 07, 2010 7:16 PM<br><b>To:</b> Joe Snider; <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] dwelling unit / residential LPDs</span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d">Hey Joe,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d">If you’re looking to start somewhere… I know the NEC (NFPA 70) lays out a clear method of estimating dwelling unit lighting loads within Article 220. It starts off seeming high (3W/SF), but there are heavy demand factors that vary with the total calc’d load following within the same article: i.e. first 3,000 @ 100%... 3,000 to 120,000 @ 35% etc…</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d">While I’ve yet to fall back on the NEC as an energy modeling resource, I’m unaware of any better direct source for residential lighting loads… I imagine if you dig hard enough, one of the ASHRAE handbooks probably has something along these lines as well that might give you a different sum.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d">I think ASHRAE Fundamentals does have a clear thing or two to say regarding what percentage of the lighting load should end up in a space vs. a plenum when you are talking about different lamp sources (incandescent vs. CFL…) – something to be aware of if you want to pursue this avenue.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d">~Nick</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d"> </span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d"><img border="0" alt="cid:489575314@22072009-0ABB" width="119" height="37"></span><b><span style="COLOR: #2d4d5e"></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="COLOR: #2d4d5e"> </span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="COLOR: #2d4d5e">NICK CATON, E.I.T.</span></b><b><span style="COLOR: #2d4d5e; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #cc9900; FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt">PROJECT ENGINEER</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #2d4d5e; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Smith & Boucher Engineers</span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; COLOR: #cc9900; FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #2d4d5e; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">25501 west valley parkway</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #2d4d5e; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">olathe ks 66061</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #2d4d5e; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">direct 913 344.0036</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #2d4d5e; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">fax 913 345.0617</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d"><a title="blocked::www.smithboucher.com" href="http://www.smithboucher.com/" target="_blank"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">www.smithboucher.com</span></a></span><u><span style="COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </span></u><span style="COLOR: #1f497d"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</span></b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Joe Snider<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, December 07, 2010 5:24 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> [Equest-users] dwelling unit / residential LPDs</span></p>
</div></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I have reviewed the archives and found a few threads on this topic but couldn’t find either good resolution, or a clear enough string to reply to, so I thought I would re-post:</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">ASHRAE 90.1 App G doesn’t let you include dwelling units in typical LPD calcs. They say you need to plug in the same number for both proposed and baseline.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">But you can apparently pursue exceptional calcs to justify any cost savings in LEED. But you need to show some kind of analysis as to how you chose a baseline, such as a study or something presumably that shows typical w /sf for residential.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">We have worked very hard to reduce energy use in lighting in a few high-rise residential projects and would like to be able to receive credit for that on our energy model.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Has anyone been through this with USGBC and / or know of a good resource for a baseline w / sf for residential?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">In advance, thank you very much. Great forum.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Sincerely,</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Joe Snider</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #948a54; FONT-SIZE: 8.5pt">---</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #948a54; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">Joe Snider, AIA, LEED AP</span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="COLOR: #948a54; FONT-SIZE: 8.5pt"> </span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="COLOR: #948a54; FONT-SIZE: 8.5pt">SEQUIL Systems, Inc</span></b><span style="COLOR: #948a54; FONT-SIZE: 8.5pt">.</span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span style="COLOR: #948a54; FONT-SIZE: 8.5pt">high performance sustainable structures</span></i></b><b><i><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></span></i></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #948a54; FONT-SIZE: 8pt"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #948a54; FONT-SIZE: 8pt">1 SE 4th Ave, Suite 205</span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #948a54; FONT-SIZE: 8pt">Delray Beach, FL 33483</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #948a54; FONT-SIZE: 8pt">t: 561.921.0900</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #948a54; FONT-SIZE: 8pt">f: 561.208.6090</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #948a54; FONT-SIZE: 8pt"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #948a54; FONT-SIZE: 8pt"><a href="http://www.sequil.com/" target="_blank">www.SEQUIL.com</a></span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></span></p>
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