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<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>If you argue that you can apply the 22 W/gpm to the secondary as
a standalone loop power, then you are either arguing 1) the primary gets the
same 22 W/gpm or 2) the primary is not addressed. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Both of those seem pretty unworkable. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>So, I still think the 22 W/gpm is a system value not a per loop value
and the missing direction is in the break out between the primary and
secondary. If you have a primary/secondary system, I would state your case for
keeping the primary power the same in both models. If your design does not
have primary/secondary or chilled water at all, then you will have to use your
judgment.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>You do not have to design to 22 w/gpm, you are just compared
against it under Appendix G. I am not saying that agree that the value of 22
W/gpm is the right reference for all building types, shapes, sizes, and
locations but the intent is mostly clear.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#5F574F'>Paul Riemer, PE, LEED AP</span></b><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#5F574F'>Associate / Mechanical</span><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#5F574F'>Direct: 612-465-7696</span><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#5F574F'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:#C4262E'>DUNHAM</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:#5F574F'><br>
Celebrating 50 Years of Service</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:
"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#5F574F'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Bishop,
Bill<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 17, 2010 9:04 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Paul Diglio; John T. Forester; James Hansen<br>
<b>Cc:</b> equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Baseline Chilled Water Loop<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>Paul,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>Thanks for adding to the conversation. John and I were hoping more
people would contribute. Like James, I think the wording is ambiguous enough
that clarification is required from ASHRAE. I’ll add a few more comments.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:navy'><span style='mso-list:
Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>If Appendix G. used the wording “pump system power”, rather than
“pump power”, I would agree that 22 W/gpm should be the sum of the power of all
pumps in a system.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:navy'><span style='mso-list:
Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>Richard Ellison commented that this should be compared to the
Appendix G fan power calculation, which describes the method to calculate total
fan system power, not power for each fan in the system. However, the heading
for 90.1-2007, G3.1.2.9 is “System Fan Power”, whereas G3.1.3.10 is
“Chilled-Water Pumps (Systems 7 and 8)”. Again, the wording “pump system” is not
used in Appendix G. The heading “System Fan Power” was changed from the
90.1-2004 wording of “Supply Fan Power”, making it less ambiguous.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:navy'><span style='mso-list:
Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>CHW systems are only modeled for the baseline for buildings with 6
or more floors, or >150,000 ft^2, so we are not modeling small systems which
would have less head loss. In Section 11, where the 22W/gpm requirement first
appeared in earlier versions of ASHRAE Standard 90.1, there is no such size
constraint, and systems are modeled as primary only, which presumably would
require less pump power.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:navy'><span style='mso-list:
Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>My CHW system design experience is limited, but I’ll note that
systems in the north are typically designed with high percentages of glycol due
to freezing concerns, which increases the pumping power required.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>Bill<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='margin-left:.5in;text-align:center'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Paul Diglio
[mailto:paul.diglio@sbcglobal.net] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, November 16, 2010 9:00 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Bishop, Bill; John T. Forester; James Hansen<br>
<b>Cc:</b> equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Baseline Chilled Water Loop</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif"'>In
90.1 Section 3.2 Definitions, "Pump System Power: the sum of the nominal
power demand of motors of <u>all</u> pumps that are required...."<br>
<br>
This wording makes it clear that in a primary-secondary pumping system the sum
should be 22W/gpm for both pumps, not per pump.<br>
<br>
Paul Diglio<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='margin-left:.5in;text-align:center'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
<hr size=1 width="100%" align=center>
</span></div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> "Bishop, Bill"
<wbishop@pathfinder-ea.com><br>
<b>To:</b> John T. Forester <JohnTF@BVHis.com>; James Hansen
<JHANSEN@ghtltd.com><br>
<b>Cc:</b> equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tue, November 16, 2010 2:37:43 PM<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Baseline Chilled Water Loop</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>I raised the question initially with John offline. My
interpretation of “pump power shall be 22 W/gpm” is that each pump in a
primary/secondary system should have this power. There is no wording that
indicates that it should be otherwise, though I see Richard’s point that “gpm”
could be interpreted to mean CHW produced. My chilled water system design
experience is limited, so I don’t have a sense of “typical” CHW system pumping
power. Using only the system that I am currently modeling for a project, the
proposed primary pumps are 28 BHP and 953 gpm, or 21.6 W/gpm for the primary
loop. The secondary CHW pump uses a 20 HP pump at 380 gpm. I don’t have the
BHP, but using 16 BHP results in 31 W/gpm for the secondary loop. So, my sample
size of one already uses more pump power than a baseline system with 22 W/gpm
applied to each of the primary and secondary pumps.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>Bill</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Franklin Gothic Medium Cond","serif";
color:black'>William</span></b><b><span style='font-family:"Franklin Gothic Medium Cond","serif";
color:black'> Bishop , PE, BEMP, LEED<sup>®</sup> AP </span></b><b><span
style='font-family:"Franklin Gothic Medium Cond","serif";color:#006600'>|</span></b><b><span
style='font-family:"Franklin Gothic Medium Cond","serif";color:black'>
Pathfinder Engineers & Architects LLP</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
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margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Mechanical Engineer</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
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margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif"'><img
width=60 height=58 id="_x0000_i1027" src="cid:image001.jpg@01CB87DE.7EF1DAE0"></span><span
style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>134 South
Fitzhugh Street</span><span style='font-size:7.5pt;color:navy'>
</span><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>Rochester, NY 14608</span><span style='font-size:7.5pt;color:navy'><br>
</span><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>T: (585) 325-6004 </span><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:
"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Ext. 114</span><span style='color:navy'>
</span><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>F: (585) 325-6005</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<a href="http://www.pathfinder-ea.com/">www.pathfinder-ea.com</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:18.0pt;font-family:Webdings;
color:green'>P</span><span style='color:green'> </span><span
style='font-size:7.5pt;color:green'>Sustainability – the forest AND the trees.</span><span
style='font-size:18.0pt;font-family:Webdings;color:green'> P</span><span
style='font-size:18.0pt;color:green'> </span><span style='font-size:18.0pt;
font-family:Webdings;color:green'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='margin-left:.5in;text-align:center'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>John T.
Forester<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, November 16, 2010 10:59 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'James Hansen'<br>
<b>Cc:</b> equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Baseline Chilled Water Loop</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>James,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I see your argument that it is a challenge to design to 22
W/gpm. However, using your example of 2,000 gpm and 22 W/gpm, are you
suggesting that a 44 kW (60-hp) motor is acceptable for a
primary-only pump on a 1,000-ton chiller?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Section 11 states that the 22 W/gpm was chosen based on 75 ft of
head and 65% combined pump/motor efficiency (the 90.1 User’s Guide actually
says 60%) for a primary-only loop. This would include all system pressure
drops. Again, this is not easy to design to. But at least the
Section 11 example is clear on how much pump energy to include in the baseline
design.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>John</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:gray'>John T. Forester, P.E., LEED AP, Mechanical Design Engineer </span><b><span
style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#0000A0'>I BVH
Integrated Services I</span></b><b><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:
"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> </span></b><span style='font-size:7.5pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray'>617.658.9008 tel </span><b><span
style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#0000A0'>I</span></b><b><span
style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray'> </span></b><span
style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray'>617.244.3753
fax</span><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#0000A0'> <b>I</b></span><b><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:
"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray'> </span></b><span style='font-size:7.5pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray'>One Gateway Center Suite 506,
Newton MA 02458 </span><b><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#0000A0'>I <a href="http://www.bvhis.com">www.bvhis.com</a> I
Hartford ● New Haven ● Boston</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> James Hansen
[mailto:JHANSEN@ghtltd.com] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, November 16, 2010 10:23 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Richard Ellison; John T. Forester;
equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Equest-users] Baseline Chilled Water Loop</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>As I indicated earlier, everyone has their own opinion about
this credit. But consider this:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>The pressure drop across a cooling tower and condenser water
piping system is roughly the same as the pressure drop thru the chiller
evaporator and primary loop of a primary/secondary chilled water plant (on a
per gpm basis once you correct for the higher flow rates of the condenser
side). In other words, on a PER GPM basis, a typical water-cooled chilled
water plant will have similar pump HP per GPM for the condenser water system
and primary chilled water system. Not identical, but similar. I’ve
got 10+ recent base-building designs that confirm this. 90.1 requires 19
W / gpm for a condenser water system, and you are saying that you only model 6
W / gpm for the primary chilled water pump? That is below realistic
design values for a primary system, at least in my opinion. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Example: 1,000 ton chiller at 54/42 requiring 2,000
GPM. 6 W / gpm thru the primary loop would only use 12.0 KW, or a 15 hp
motor frame. If you assume a chiller evaporator loss of 15 ft, and make
only modest estimates of an additional 20 ft for piping losses, strainers,
mixing valves, bypass valves, etc (35 ft total), you can try and select any
pump you want but you’re going to need at least a 25 hp motor. And with
most chilled water plants, even 35 ft seems low for the pressure drop across a
primary loop. I don’t see how 6 W / gpm can accurately represent a
chilled water primary loop even in the most efficient central plant
designs. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Furthermore, if ASHRAE had wanted us to prorate the 22 W / gpm
between the primary and secondary loops, wouldn’t they have instructed us to do
that, especially since there is a huge difference in energy consumption
depending on which of the two loops has the higher W / gpm? Have they
instructed us to do that in an addendum?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I stand by my use of 22 W / gpm for each pump, and have never
had a reviewer instruct me to do otherwise (which of course doesn’t mean that
I’m not wrong). </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:teal'>GHT Limited<br>
</span></b><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>James Hansen</span></b><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>, PE, LEED AP</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Senior Associate</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>1010 N. Glebe Rd, Suite 200</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Arlington, VA 22201-4749</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>703-338-5754 (Cell)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>703-243-1200 (Office)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>703-276-1376 (Fax)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:teal'><a href="http://www.ghtltd.com/">www.ghtltd.com</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#31849B'> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Richard Ellison
[mailto:REllison@southlandind.com] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, November 16, 2010 9:27 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> James Hansen; John T. Forester; equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Equest-users] Baseline Chilled Water Loop</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I usually don’t respond to the information on this forum but I
completely disagree with this latest e-mail.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>The chilled water is supplied by a chiller not a pump.
“The baseline design pump power shall be 22 W / gpm” is for the GPM delivered
by the chiller and the pumping system does not matter. The power is specified
per GPM not per pump. If you use primary/secondary then the energy
is divided between the pumps. We usually assume 6W/gpm for the primary
pump and 16W/gpm for the secondary pump. If one uses 22W/gpm for each
pump, then the total of 44W/gpm the pump energy is huge and the savings
unrealistic.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>R I C H A R D E L L I S O N</span><span style='color:#E36C0A'><br>
</span><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>PE, CEM, CEA, CTAB, CBEP, LEED AP </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Energy Engineer</span><span style='color:#E36C0A'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Southland Industries</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>22340 Dresden Street, Suite 177</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Dulles, VA 20166</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Office: 703.834.5570</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Direct: 703.834.2438</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Fax: 703.834.5572</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>James Hansen<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, November 16, 2010 8:50 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> John T. Forester; equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Baseline Chilled Water Loop</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I’ve seen different people provide different responses to this
question, but I’ve always modeled EACH pump in a chilled water system as 22 W /
gpm. Don’t prorate.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>“The baseline design pump power shall be 22 W / gpm”. It
can’t be any more clear than this. 90.1 tells you when you need a primary
/ secondary system, and when you can get away with primary only. In other
words, they are telling you how many pumps you need to model. And they
specifically list the pump power in terms of GPM, which is PER PUMP. Nowhere
does it say to prorate.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:teal'>GHT Limited<br>
</span></b><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>James Hansen</span></b><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>, PE, LEED AP</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Senior Associate</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>1010 N. Glebe Rd, Suite 200</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Arlington, VA 22201-4749</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>703-338-5754 (Cell)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>703-243-1200 (Office)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>703-276-1376 (Fax)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:teal'><a href="http://www.ghtltd.com/">www.ghtltd.com</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#31849B'> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>John T.
Forester<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, November 16, 2010 8:41 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Baseline Chilled Water Loop</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Fellow Modelers,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I’ve received a comment regarding my response last week on how
to model CHW pumps for App. G. Specifically, item 7 (see below) and how
the 22 W/gpm is defined for a primary secondary configuration.
Section G3.1.3.10 can be interpreted (at least) two different ways.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>First, Section G3.1.3.10 Chilled-Water Pumps (Systems 7 and 8)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>“The baseline design pump power shall be 22 W/gpm.
Chilled-water systems with a cooling capacity of 300 tons or more shall be
modeled as primary/secondary systems with variable-speed drives on the
secondary pumping loop. Chilled-water pumps in systems serving less than
300 tons cooling capacity shall be modeled as primary/secondary systems
with secondary pump riding the pump curve.”</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>The question: </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Should each primary and secondary pump be sized for
22 W/gpm OR should this “design pump power” be divided up (in some way)
between the primary and secondary pumps?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Position A:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>If the 22 W/gpm should be the TOTAL pumping power, there is no
guidance on how to divvy up this requirement and the constant volume primary
pumps could be sized for 20 W/gpm and the secondary (VSD or riding pump curve)
can be allotted 2 W/gpm. This would maximize the pump energy in the
baseline model.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Position B:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Sizing each primary pump and secondary pump to 22 W/gpm
will over-estimate the baseline pump energy (VSD or riding pump curve) and this
is not the intent of 90.1. The “design pump power” of 22 W/gpm is the
same requirement as Section 11 (ECB method) just with a different pumping
configuration.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>How do you interpret (and model) 90.1 App. G chilled-water pump
power requirement of 22 W/gpm? (Your interpretation doesn’t
necessarily have to be one of the positions above.)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Thanks,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>John</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:gray'>John T. Forester, P.E., LEED AP, Mechanical Design Engineer </span><b><span
style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#0000A0'>I BVH
Integrated Services I</span></b><b><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:
"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> </span></b><span style='font-size:7.5pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray'>617.658.9008 tel </span><b><span
style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#0000A0'>I</span></b><b><span
style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray'> </span></b><span
style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray'>617.244.3753
fax</span><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#0000A0'> <b>I</b></span><b><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:
"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray'> </span></b><span style='font-size:7.5pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray'>One Gateway Center Suite 506,
Newton MA 02458 </span><b><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#0000A0'>I <a href="http://www.bvhis.com">www.bvhis.com</a> I
Hartford ● New Haven ● Boston</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>John T.
Forester<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, November 12, 2010 5:47 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Smith, Michael'<br>
<b>Cc:</b> equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Baseline Chilled Water Loop</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Hi Michael,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I think I can answer your App G question.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>First, in the context of 90.1, “variable flow” does not
necessarily mean variable speed. It just means riding the pump curve with
a bypass to minimize pumping pressure drops through the loop during part-load
operation.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><u><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>App. G Chilled Water Modeling <=300 tons</span></u><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif"'>1.</span><span style='font-size:
7.5pt'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Create a chilled water
circulation loop and name it something like “Pri CHW Loop.”</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif"'>2.</span><span style='font-size:
7.5pt'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Create another chilled water circulation
loop and name it something like “Sec CHW Loop.”</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif"'>a.</span><span style='font-size:
7.5pt'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Change the Loop Sub-type of
this loop to Secondary and choose “Pri CHW Loop” as the primary loop.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif"'>3.</span><span style='font-size:
7.5pt'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Create a circulation pump and
name it something like “Sec CHW Pump.”</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif"'>a.</span><span style='font-size:
7.5pt'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Set this pump as variable
speed. I believe you are allowed to set the minimum speed to 50% for App.
G. (someone here on the list can correct me on this if I’m wrong).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif"'>b.</span><span style='font-size:
7.5pt'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>By default, the valve on this
loop is three-way and will circulate water directly back to the primary loop as
long as there are two-way valves at your terminal units (AHU coils, FCUs, etc).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif"'>c.</span><span style='font-size:
7.5pt'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Attach this pump to the Sec
CHW Loop.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif"'>d.</span><span style='font-size:
7.5pt'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Change the loop head sensor
location to “at coils.”</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif"'>4.</span><span style='font-size:
7.5pt'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Create a condenser water loop
and CW pump and attach the pump to the loop.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif"'>a.</span><span style='font-size:
7.5pt'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Also create an open tower
heat rejection device and attach it to your condenser water loop.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif"'>5.</span><span style='font-size:
7.5pt'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Create 1 primary chilled
water pump per chiller. They won’t be attached to anything yet and will
be at the bottom of the component tree.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif"'>a.</span><span style='font-size:
7.5pt'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>The default for a pump is
“One-Speed.” This is fine and the pump will act as a constant volume pump
with the three-way valve on the secondary loop.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif"'>6.</span><span style='font-size:
7.5pt'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Create a water-cooled chiller
and choose the “Pri CHW Loop 1” and “water-cooled.”</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif"'>a.</span><span style='font-size:
7.5pt'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Since there is no pump
attached to the primary loop, you will be required to select a pump for the
chiller.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif"'>b.</span><span style='font-size:
7.5pt'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>You will also be required to
select the Condenser water loop</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif"'>7.</span><span style='font-size:
7.5pt'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Now what you have to do is
size your pumps so the total pump energy is 22 W/pm. You will want to do
something like 4-5 W/gpm for each primary pump and use the remaining for the
secondary pump.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>This system is primary/secondary with constant flow through each
chiller and variable speed/variable flow through the secondary loop.
Since each chiller has a pump directly attached to it, each primary pump will
automatically cycle on and off with the chillers.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:gray'>John T. Forester, P.E., LEED AP, Mechanical Design Engineer </span><b><span
style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#0000A0'>I BVH
Integrated Services I</span></b><b><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:
"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> </span></b><span style='font-size:7.5pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray'>617.658.9008 tel </span><b><span
style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#0000A0'>I</span></b><b><span
style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray'> </span></b><span
style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray'>617.244.3753
fax</span><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#0000A0'> <b>I</b></span><b><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:
"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray'> </span></b><span style='font-size:7.5pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray'>One Gateway Center Suite 506,
Newton MA 02458 </span><b><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#0000A0'>I </span></b><a href="http://www.bvhis.com"><b><span
style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>www.bvhis.com</span></b></a><b><span
style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#0000A0'> I
Hartford ● New Haven ● Boston</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Smith, Michael<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, November 12, 2010 3:55 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Equest-users] Baseline Chilled Water Loop</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif"'>Everyone,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif"'>I
have a question regarding the baseline chilled water loop. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif"'>ASHRAE
90.1 2007 Section G3.1.3.10 states that for large chilled water systems serving
baseline systems 7 and 8 that are greater than 300 tons the loop “shall be
modeled as primary/secondary with variable speed drives on the secondary
pumping loop.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif"'>The
following section, G3.1.3.11 further goes on to say that “each chiller shall be
modeled with separate…chilled water pumps interlocked to operate with the
associated chiller.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif"'>As
clarification, does this mean three sets of pumps are required, or just two?
Are the “primary” loop pumps specified as the chiller pumps? <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif"'>Two
reasons why I am confused. Firstly, the Chapter 11 baseline chilled water loop
is supposed to be simulated as primary-only variable flow, but still has the
similar requirement for interlocked chiller pumps. That would be two sets of
pumps. Adding a “secondary” loop actually adds a third set of pumps. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif"'>The
second reason why I am confused is that the <a
href="http://www.energydesignresources.com/Portals/0/documents/DesignGuidelines/EDR_DesignGuidelines_%20HVAC_Simulation.pdf">Simulation
Guidebook</a> prepared for Pacific Gas and Electric (same affiliation as
CoolTools) has a visual of how to simulate “primary/secondary” loops on page
52, but they do not include chiller pumps in their image of the eQUEST
component tree. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif"'>I
can’t understand why three sets of pumps would be required. I supposed a follow
up question may be if the 22 watts/gpm is inclusive of all three sets of pumps.
Hopefully someone can clarify! I appreciate your help. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#333399'>Michael J. Smith, EIT, LEED</span></b><sup><span
style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#333399'>® </span></sup><b><span
style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#333399'>AP</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><b><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
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<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><b><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#66737D'>512 7th Ave., New York, NY 10018</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><b><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#66737D'>Direct: 212.951.2671| Main: 212.532.9600</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#66737D'><a href="http://www.wspfk.com/">www.wspfk.com</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#66737D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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