Hi Pasha,<br><br>I would put all 4 buildings and the garage into one model. As Jeremy pointed out doing so would take care of any metering and shading issues. The only downside I can think of is the size of the model, which might add to the run time. Since eQ is so fast, however, it's a difference of 2 minutes vs 30 seconds, just enough time to grab another cup of coffee or to let the dogs out.<br>
<br>Best,<br><br>Carol<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 7:52 AM, Pasha Korber-Gonzalez <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:pasha.pkconsulting@gmail.com">pasha.pkconsulting@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">Hi Nick,<br><br>I can't remember how long you've been modeling, but your advice exudes 'knowledge beyond your years.' At least from my perspective, I didn't think I could have it a win-win situation for this project, but I like your approach.<br>
<br>Also, thanks for pointing out the idea of garages being nothing more than building shades & process/ltg loads I hadn't thought of inputting the "idea" of the garage as building shades. :)<br><br>
Importing the separate models into one later on seems daunting & tedious, but with the separate-to-one approach I guess it can always be an option that I decide later if it seems necessary, or for comparative purposes & a chance at a sensitivity analysis...<br>
<br>I always appreciate the multitude of intelligent answers and supportive comments from fellow simulators on this list. Now we can keep moving forward until the next hurdle.<br><br>Thanks,<br><font color="#888888">Pasha :)</font><div>
<div></div><div class="h5"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">
On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 10:31 AM, Nick Caton <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:ncaton@smithboucher.com" target="_blank">ncaton@smithboucher.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">A few extra thoughts,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">In line with Jeremy’s suggestion regarding a campus model
being a useful approach… Perhaps you can have your cake and eat it too? </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">The new (3.64) wizard screens have a new input field for each
shell that allow you to assign custom prefixes suffixes to each shell –
if you utilize this while making separate files (prefix each group of shells
with N#,E#,S#, W#), and make a point to define your geometries from a holistic
CAD reference, I’ll bet you can end up with 4 distinct files that will
all import cleanly into each other when all’s said and done as a final
step… you’d want to continue the nomenclature when defining things
in detailed mode of course.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I haven’t submitted but one garage for LEED, but I’m
of the opinion any unconditioned garage isn’t anything more complicated than
a collection of building shades and/or process / external lighting loads to an
eQuest modeler! To Kristy’s cautions, one can easily define
multiple exterior lighting loads (up to 10 I think) – with distinct magnitudes
and/or scheduling… allowing you to model interior/perimeter and daytime/nighttime
controls. Photocell scheduling functions are available for perimeter
lighting as well.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Pasha, it’ll ultimately come down to how you want to move
forward, but 4 separate models sounds like it might work for you: Each would
feature distinct component prefixes and building shades mimicking the entire
garage, but external lighting/process loads representing a quarter of the
garage. When the time comes that a campus model is desireable for
whatever reason, you can delete the garage-shades in models 2,3 and 4, and
import into #1, then modify your exterior loads to ensure you’re modeling
the full garage.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">If you desire extra accuracy in the separate models, you may
want to consider creating some building shades to represent the other 3
buildings – but you’d want to delete those later when importing the
files together for a campus model...</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">~Nick</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><img src="cid:image001.jpg@01CB646D.8A10C9C0" alt="cid:489575314@22072009-0ABB" height="37" width="119"></span><b><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);"></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);"> </span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">NICK CATON, E.I.T.</span></b><b><span style="color: rgb(45, 77, 94);"></span></b></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">Check out our new web-site @ </span></i><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><a href="http://www.smithboucher.com" title="blocked::www.smithboucher.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">www.smithboucher.com</span></a></span><u><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: blue;"> </span></u><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<div style="border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; border-width: 1pt medium medium; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">
<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Pasha
Korber-Gonzalez<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 05, 2010 9:05 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Jeremy Poling<br>
<b>Cc:</b> eQUEST Users List<div><div></div><div><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] LEED-parking garage question/advice needed</div></div></span></p>
</div><div><div></div><div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;">Thanks Jeremy,<br>
<br>
I wasn't aware of the 5-year metering requirement for Energy Star...that does
help me 'accept' the advice for the model a bit more. However, it still
doesn't sit right with me to split a buiding amongst several model files for
the same reason that you mentioned about disproportionate sim results.<br>
<br>
I liked your observations for the finished model--thanks for sharing your
experience on that. I also like the idea of doing a separate model for
the garage itself with the approach of keeping all the models in separate
files, but I think I will have to reconsider the multi-files approach versus
inputting all 5 structures into one model file. hmmmm......<br>
<br>
pkg</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 9:53 AM, Jeremy Poling <<a href="mailto:jpoling@epsteinglobal.com" target="_blank">jpoling@epsteinglobal.com</a>>
wrote:</p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">As a note, the USGBC reviewer’s
advice is in line with the requirements of Energy Star for detached buildings
on a campus with shared parking: for separate buildings on a campus, the
parking area (surface and/or garage) must be divided between the buildings when
entered into Portfolio Manager. If this is a LEED 2009 project and the
owner plans to comply with the 5-year metering requirement via Energy Star,
setting up the model in that manner will make it consistent with the mandatory
minimum M&V requirements. I’m not sure what led to the decision
to model each building in a separate PD2 file (other than scheduling of the
design work meaning Building 4’s model won’t be needed for some
time after Building 1’s model is done), but it might provide some benefit
to model the campus in one file. I would think this would be true in 2
specific cases:</span></p>
<p style="margin-left: 38.25pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Symbol; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">-</span><span style="font-size: 7pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">
</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">If there is a single meter
covering all campus electrical use (not uncommon for campuses), allowing the
model to calculate a coincident demand for cost purposes that might be lower
than the sum of the demands for the four separate model</span></p>
<p style="margin-left: 38.25pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Symbol; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">-</span><span style="font-size: 7pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">
</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Credit for daylighting is
being pursued and there is a potential for one of the buildings to shade
another, making the combined model file more conservative on energy savings
from daylighting than the four individual models</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I have done a split PD2 file approach on
a model before and while it made sense when it was setup and the project was
small (10K SF total), responding to comments was more difficult. For
example, if there was some error in the baseline U-Value then each model file
would have to be corrected individually instead of changing the wall type in a
single model (4 changes instead of 1). Just some thoughts to consider.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I would partially agree with the
reviewer, though – the parking garage needs to be part of the model and
with a split model you would have to put the parking garage into each of the
four models. I probably would have taken a slightly different approach,
though – If the campus is not modeled in a single model, the parking
garage should be modeled on its own, with the resulting energy divided between the
four models proportionate to the number of spaces allocated to each building or
the proposed occupancy of each building, since those are the factors that
determine how much of the garage each building would use.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(199, 91, 18);">JEREMY R. POLING, PE, LEED AP</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><br>
</span><span style="font-size: 8pt; color: gray;">Associate Vice President,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 8pt; color: gray;">Senior Sustainability Analyst<br>
Strategic Services<br>
<i>Site Solutions | Operations | Sustainability</i></span><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><br>
<br>
</span><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(199, 91, 18);">EPSTEIN</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><br>
</span><span style="font-size: 8pt; color: gray;">Architecture<br>
Interiors<br>
Engineering<br>
Construction</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span style="font-size: 8pt; color: green;">Epstein is a firm believer in
sustainability. We ask that you please consider the environment before printing
this e-mail.</span></i></b></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="border-style: solid none none; border-color: -moz-use-text-color; border-width: 1pt medium medium; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> <a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of
</b>Walson, Kristy<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 05, 2010 8:21 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Pasha Korber-Gonzalez'; eQUEST Users List<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] LEED-parking garage question/advice needed</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Hi Pasha,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Having modeled a few parking garages in
various software at this point, I also do not agree with the LEED
representative's suggestion. In my experience, parking garages typically
have daylighting controls to turn off perimeter lights during the day.
This would be tough for a simulation program to model without creating a
separate building for the parking garage. I know you said that the
parking garage would not be utilizing any ECM's, but I like to leave my options
open in case an owner comes back and decides that the payback is well worth the
money spent up-front for controls.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">If you end up incorporating the lighting
as a bulk load on the electrical meter at each building, just remember that
you'll need 2 bulk loads - one for daytime garage lighting and one for night
time exterior lighting. If you're sure they won't be adding ECM's at a
later date, then I think the bulk load idea will work. Just be sure to
spend some time on your lighting schedule because the lighting savings seen
between the baseline and proposed models for a parking garage can be
significant and you don't want to lose any of this benefit. Good luck!</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Kristy Walson, PE, LEED AP</span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(51, 51, 51);">Mechanical Engineer / Sustainable Design</span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<div style="border-style: solid none none; border-color: -moz-use-text-color; border-width: 1pt medium medium; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> <a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of
</b>Pasha Korber-Gonzalez<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 05, 2010 9:13 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> eQUEST Users List<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Equest-users] LEED-parking garage question/advice needed</span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi,<br>
<br>
I would like to get a few opinions from some fellow simulators on a modeling
approach for a LEED project. Please share your opinion/advice if
you are interested.<br>
<br>
Project: Four separate buildings that surround an open-air
parking garage structure (all above grade.)--Location is Miami, FL<br>
Intent: All Four buildings (as a whole project) are going for
LEED certification. Each building will be modeled in it's own .pd2 file
as the simulator would prefer to manage the models in this manner versus using
a campus modeling approach in a single .pd2 file.<br>
<br>
USGBC recommendations where that the parking garage should be divided (or
split) into four pieces and 1/4 of the parking garage should be included with
the buildings in each of the separate model files.<br>
<br>
The ISSUE is this: My simulation gut instinct is telling me that
this is a really bad way to include the energy use of a parking garage in a
project model....(I was actually shocked that this was the advice from a LEED
representative.) So I am trying to advise my colleague that
it might be better to not include the actual parking structure (i.e. separate
shell) in each model, but to calculate the lighting use (on a schedule of
operation) for the parking garage lighting and then simply add in that energy
as a kW input on a separate meter and assign a ltg operating schedule to
it. With this approach it would be easier to take the advice
of the LEED folks and input 1/4 of the installed kW in each of the separate
model files, rather than wasting time with building in (& managing) another
shell in each model file. (FYI-there are no other ECM's that will
be accounted for in the parking garage.)<br>
<br>
<br>
What do you think of this approach? Do you think that it is
significant and important to include the "physical" presence of the
parking garage in each of the model files? What approach would you
take?<br>
<br>
Thanks for your time as always...<br>
<br>
Pasha :)</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div></div></div>
</div>
</blockquote></div><br>
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<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Carol Gardner PE<br>
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