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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Hi Jeff,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Yes, you are right that heat
pumps in cooling are not as efficient in cooling only as a chiller. The best system
type/minimum efficiency combination to use depends on the purpose for the
modeling. I do a lot of modeling where there is not as defined of guidelines
for the baseline system as Appendix G, so my baseline tends to be what the
building owner might choose to do instead. So a proposed Multistack heat pump
system would get a bit of a penalty in cooling only mode, but would save energy
in other modes against a chiller/boiler system.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Kelsey Van Tassel</span></b><b><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#000066'><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Mechanical Engineer | <a href="mailto:kvantassel@sustaineng.com">kvantassel@sustaineng.com</a></span><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#000066'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>608.836.4488 ext. 20 | Fax: 608.836.4477</span><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";
color:#000066'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Sustainable Engineering Group</span><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>901 Deming Way, Suite 201</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Madison, WI 53717<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'><a href="http://www.sustaineng.com/">www.sustaineng.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Jeff Seger
[mailto:Jeff.Seger@megroup.com] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, October 01, 2010 10:09 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Kelsey VanTassel; Daniel Deese; equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Equest-users] Water Source Heat Pump Efficiencies<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Daniel,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>To answer your question
directly, there is no baseline efficiency for that type of package (Just like
Kelsey said). If you’re doing this for energy modeling purposes
(comparing a baseline case vs. a proposed case), none of the ASHRAE baseline
cases (Systems 1 through 8 from Appx G) require water source heat pumps, and
that’s why you don’t find any required efficiencies. Based on the
type of system you’re describing (70 ton multistack), I’d think
your baseline system would be a System 5 or 7. We have some curves in
Trace built up for larger capacity heat pump chiller, so if you want the
efficiencies we have for those, let me know and I’ll tell you. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Kelsey,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>The problem with using the
minimum efficiencies for water chilling packages is that the heat pumps are not
nearly as efficient in cooling only as a typical centrifugal
chiller…where they really excel is the combined mode when they produce
chilled and hot water simultaneously…usually the COP you find
manufacturers advertising is the sum of the cooling COP plus the heating COP.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Hope this helps,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>Jeff
Seger </span></b><b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;color:#4A9054;
letter-spacing:1.2pt'>EIT</span></b><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:#006086'><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>M.E. GROUP </span></b><b><span
style='font-size:8.0pt;color:black'>/</span></b><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'> </span></b><b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif";
color:#006086;letter-spacing:1.2pt'>design</span></b><b><i><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;
letter-spacing:-1.4pt'> </span></i></b><b><span style='font-size:6.5pt;
font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif";color:black;letter-spacing:-1.4pt'>+</span></b><b><i><span
style='font-size:6.5pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;
letter-spacing:1.2pt'> </span></i></b><b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif";color:#4A9054;letter-spacing:1.2pt'>green</span></b><b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>t: 816.531.2121
x3123<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><a href="http://www.megroup.com/"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;color:#1F497D;text-decoration:none'><img border=0 width=175 height=54
id="Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:image001.jpg@01CB6152.0C256160"
alt="LOGO_COMBINEDb"></span></a><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Kelsey VanTassel
[mailto:KVanTassel@sustaineng.com] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, October 01, 2010 9:07 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Daniel Deese; equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Water Source Heat Pump Efficiencies<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>No, you are right, there is
nothing listed in the tables for water-source heat pump greater than 135,000
Btu/h. I think that’s when you go to the water-chilling packages table
and start looking at the minimum efficiencies for water-cooled chillers. That
wouldn’t cover the heating mode, though. Maybe someone else knows for
sure.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Kelsey Van Tassel</span></b><b><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#000066'><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Mechanical Engineer | <a href="mailto:kvantassel@sustaineng.com">kvantassel@sustaineng.com</a></span><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#000066'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>608.836.4488 ext. 20 | Fax: 608.836.4477<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";
color:#000066'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Sustainable Engineering Group</span><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#000066'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>901 Deming Way, Suite 201<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Madison, WI 53717<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'><a href="http://www.sustaineng.com/">www.sustaineng.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";
color:black'> </span><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";
color:#000066'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Daniel
Deese<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, October 01, 2010 8:52 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Equest-users] Water Source Heat Pump Efficiencies<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Garamond","serif"'>Hi
all,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Garamond","serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Garamond","serif"'>
I know they always say there’s no such thing as a stupid question, but
I’ve been looking through ASHRAE 90.1 table 6.8.1 as well as I know
how, and I cannot find the required efficiency rating for a water source heat
pump with a capacity greater than 135,000 BTU/hr. We’re trying to
model Multistack heat pump/chillers, and we’re using the 70-ton model,
which correlates to about 840,000 BTU/hr. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Garamond","serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Garamond","serif"'>
Has anyone ever modeled a water source heat pump larger than 135 MBH, and if
so, which efficiency did you use? I know I’m absolutely horrible at
where’s waldo, so there’s a good chance I’ve just overlooked
it. Any help or advice is as always appreciated. Thanks.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Garamond","serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Garamond","serif"'>daniel<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Garamond","serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>Daniel
I. Deese, EI</span></b><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>| </span><b><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><ns0:PersonName>CRB</ns0:PersonName>
Consulting Engineers</span></b><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'> |
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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