<html><head><style type="text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></head><body><div style="font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:10pt"><div></div><div>I will continue on with you suggestions. I is just hard for me to get past the idea that when all of the HVAC systems are auto-sized, I still have many unmet hours. If it were just a few unmet hours, I would be ok with it, but this system has more than a few unmet hours.</div><div><br></div><div>The problem seems to be in the "WL/GS Ht Pump" input. There is no DOE2 help on the topic, so it is hard to know exactly what is going on, but when it is set to "NO" The HP runs in heating mode for ~1600 hours (with many unmet hours). When the option is set to "YES" the heat pump runs for 3218 hours in heating mode (with very few unmet hours). It seems that this option determines weather or not the heat pump is able to operate at low
outdoor temperatures, or something along those lines. With the option set to "YES" I am still able to have an air-cooled condenser, and I still have curves that relate the EIR and capacity to the OA temperature. If you want to try this out, I have attached the latest model.</div><div><br></div><div>Again, thank you for your suggestions, I always find it very helpful to have a 3rd party's comments<br></div><div><br></div><div>-Eddie</div><div><div style="font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:10pt"><br><div style="font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt"><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><hr size="1"><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> "Bishop, Bill" <wbishop@pathfinder-ea.com><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> Eddie Corwin <ecorwin@altanova-energy.com><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Cc:</span></b>
equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Wed, September 29, 2010 3:56:31 PM<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> RE: [Equest-users] No Heating from PVVT Heat Pump<br></font><br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="
font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;">Eddie,</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="
font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;">You can see with your attached model that
at least you are getting heating and the system is operating. To get rid of
your unmet hours, you will have to refine the model. First put the accurate
loads and envelope in (including getting rid of the exterior floor I mentioned
previously) and make sure your schedules (lighting, equipment, occupancy etc.)
are reasonable. Then change some interior walls to air walls as applicable
(interior walls that aren’t actually there, such as corridors that open
into a space without a door) to more evenly distribute loads within each floor.
Finally, add system capacities and zonal air flows. Perimeter baseboard heating
may be needed in the design if the windows and walls are as poor as your
previous attached model suggests. You might also create a custom capacity curve
(HEAT-CAP-FT) for the Mitsubishi heat pump.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="
font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;">Regards,</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="
font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;">Bill</span></font></p>
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</span></font></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold;">From:</span></font></b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;">
equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b><span style="
font-weight:bold;">On Behalf Of </span></b>Eddie Corwin<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, September 29,
2010 2:15 PM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b>
equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Equest-users] No
Heating from PVVT Heat Pump</span></font></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="
font-size:12.0pt;"> </span></font></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;">Bill and Kelly, thank you for your input.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;"> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;">Bill:</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;">I have tried using the wizard to create the PVVT heat pump.
I even used "system per zone" so that each zone is
controlled independently. Even coming strait out of the wizard,
there are plenty of heating hours not met. I understand that a
stand air-to-air heat pump will be unable to operate in very cold
weather, but that is where the supplemental heat should take over to
get rid of any unmet hours. I have attached this model.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;"> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;">The actual system I am trying to model is the Mitsubishi
Hyper Heating Inverter Y-Series Heat Pump. This system (in heating
mode) uses electric resistance heat to warm the outdoor air before it reaches
the outdoor coils. This ensures that heat transfer will occur between the
OA and the outdoor coil, and allows for operation at temperatures as
low as -13*F. At first I thought that eQuest can
not exactly model a system like this, so maybe eQuest is
not allowing any heat transfer between the cold coil and the cold
air. But then I tried again using the RESVVT, and it seems to work well,
even in the middle of winter. My only objection to using the RESVVT is
that I would like to have control over the OA.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;"> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;">Kelly:</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;"> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;">You say that I can not use PVVT with an air cooled
compressor, but it says that it is possible in the DOE2 help file, also, the
wizard will set it up that way. Normally I would just use the PSZ or even
PTAC to model an air-to-air heat pump, but I would like to use the variable
speed compressor, so I need to use a VVT system.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;"> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;"> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;">Has anyone modeled an air-to-air HP system that operates at
such low temperatures before?</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;"> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;">Thanks,</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;"> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;">-Eddie</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;"> </span></font></p>
</div>
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</div>
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<div>
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<hr size="1" width="100%" align="center">
</span></font></div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold;">From:</span></font></b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;"> Dakota
Kelley <dakotak@teliospc.com><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b> Eddie Corwin
<ecorwin@altanova-energy.com>; equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span></b> Wed, September 29, 2010
12:56:13 PM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b> RE: [Equest-users] No
Heating from PVVT Heat Pump</span></font></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#1F497D;">Water-cooled heat
pumps, ground loop or not, are considered system type PVVT. Air-cooled
heat pumps are considered type PSZ. Try changing your system type to PSZ
and your heating source to “heat pump”. </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#1F497D;"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#1F497D;">You can also create a
temporary project and set up an air-source heat pump in the wizard, then go
inspect the system type/settings in the detailed interface to see how eQUEST
interprets your inputs.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#1F497D;"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#1F497D;">Thanks,</span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;">From:</span></font></b><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;"> Eddie Corwin
[mailto:ecorwin@altanova-energy.com] <br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, September 29,
2010 8:43 AM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b>
equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Equest-users] No
Heating from PVVT Heat Pump</span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;">So I determined why I was not getting any heating, and the
resolutions perplexes me.</span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;"> </span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;"> I am modeling an Air-to-Air heat pump, so in the
air-side system --> Basics tab I selected "NO" for the field
"WL/GS Ht Pump". In doing so, I get no heating out of the
system. When I change the field to "YES" I now get
heating. Attached are two images showing the field i
am referring to, and showing that I have an
air-cooled condenser. Does anyone know why this might be happening.
I am worried that eQuest is treating my HP like a ground or
water source HP instead of an air-to-air system. Any
thoughts on the matter would be appreciated. By the way, I am using
eQuest 3.64</span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;"> </span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;">-Eddie</span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;"> </span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;"> </span></font></p>
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<div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center;"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;">
<hr size="1" width="100%" align="center">
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><b><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;">From:</span></font></b><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;"> Eddie
Corwin <ecorwin@altanova-energy.com><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b> equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span></b> Tue, September 28, 2010
5:17:21 PM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b> [Equest-users] No Heating
from PVVT Heat Pump</span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="black" face="Arial"><span style="
font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;">I am trying to model a PVVT system, that
uses an air-cooled heat pump for heating and cooling. For some reason,
the system refuses to supply any heating. When I change
the condenser type from air-cooled to water-cooled, the system WILL
provide heat. Has anyone experienced problems like this, or has
someone successful modeled a PVVT air-cooled heat pump? I have
attached my IDF and PD2 file for review. </span></font></p>
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