You have a good nose, Dakota, so if you smell something fishy or otherwise, I will probably agree with you.<br><br>Until you "kids" started talking about SS-R and SS-O reports I had never even really looked at them. I always used the SS-F report to calculate my hours. It reports hours underheated, hours undercooled, what the temperature is (so you can see how far it goes out of range), and the time it occurs. All of this information is very useful. For instance, you can quickly see if you maybe just need to adjust your throttling range, from say 4 to 6, to solve your problem, a frequently a reasonable and justifiable thing to do. You can also see if your hours outside of throttling range happen to be occurring on a Monday during the warm-up period during the winter or during the late afternoon in a west facing zone during the summer, which might also suggest an action to take. And, lastly, since you sometimes have hours in both the heating and cooling columns, you have your coincident hours, too. Then all you have to do is add them up. Granted that could be a chore if you have 300 hours of unmet loads, but if I had 300 hours of unmet loads I'd figure I hadn't modeled the building as well as I should have and I'd go back and try to figure out why. I wouldn't be satisfied that the delta between baseline and proposed didn't exceed the accepted 50 hours difference until I had given it another shot to reduce the overall totals. And, like many people have recently pointed out, and correctly I think, you've got to know when to say "Enough". <br>
<br>That's MHO.<br><br>Carol<br><br><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 4:34 PM, Dakota Kelley <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:dakotak@teliospc.com">dakotak@teliospc.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Brett,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Let me state a few things, and then
I’ll offer my interpretation of the comment:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-family: Symbol; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><span>·<span style="font: 7pt "Times New Roman";">
</span></span></span><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">The numbers in the
SS-R report are the same numbers shown in the Air-Side Summary report. These
reports will yield inflated system totals, and therefore simulation totals, for
multi-zone systems due to simultaneous counting of separate zones which belong
to the same system. Use them to determine the ratio of unmet heating and
cooling hours relative to the two combined, but the sum of hours in these
reports is not necessarily the same as multiplying the BEPS percentage by “hours
fans on”.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-family: Symbol; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><span>·<span style="font: 7pt "Times New Roman";">
</span></span></span><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Multiplying the BEPS
percentage by the “hours fans on” in the SS-E report yields the correct sum of
unmet heating and cooling hours, regardless of whether you are modeling multi-
or single-zone systems. Use the ratio obtained above to allocate this total
between heating and cooling hours (I have <a href="http://lists.onebuilding.org/htdig.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org/2010-July/005293.html" target="_blank">posted
previously</a> that there may be a more accurate method of allocating heating/cooling
hours, but no one has corrected me).</span></p>
<p><span style="font-family: Symbol; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><span>·<span style="font: 7pt "Times New Roman";">
</span></span></span><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">The “hours fans on”
includes hours the fans are <i>scheduled</i> <i>on</i> and the hours they are
scheduled off but <i>cycle</i> <i>on</i>. </span><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Refer
to DOE2.2 Volume 4 (build 47), page 138 (SS-C report description), for the
“hours fans on” definition. This definition is echoed on page 142 (SS-E report
description). Therefore, for any system that cycles during off hours, all
8,760 hours have the potential to be counted as an unmet hour.</span><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Now for the review comment. The</span><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> “hours each zone exists” phrase doesn’t make sense on
the first pass. However, due to the last bullet point above and baseline
requirement G3.1.2.4, “hours each zone exists” is practically the same thing as
“hours the systems are on”. All 8,760 hours have the potential to be counted
as an unmet hour if the hourly T-stat setting & throttling range are not
satisfied. What if the proposed model doesn’t cycle over night? I say that’s
a bad idea; I would never design a system that way unless an owner wants mold, frozen
pipes, etc. Define a reasonable set back temperature, allow fans to cycle, and
they will stay off if cycling is unnecessary.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Where the comment is confusing/wrong
is: “<i>SS-R reports have been used…does not take into account coincident hours</i>”.
Yes, it does. It double-counts coincident hours on a multi-zone system, and because
it is a system-level report, each system’s zones are counted separately. It is
as “coincident” as it gets. I’m not sure how the reviewer rejects the SS-R
report but then arrives at totals which are apparently greater than what was reported.
I have no .SIM file to review, but the smell of nonsense is strong.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="margin-top: 12px; width: 86px; min-height: 98px;">
<table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">
<tbody><tr>
<td style="vertical-align: top; background: none repeat scroll 0% 0% white;" bgcolor="white" width="86" height="98"><span>
<table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%">
<tbody><tr>
<td>
<div style="padding: 3.6pt 7.2pt;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt;"><img src="cid:image002.jpg@01CB29CC.83C9AA90" width="63" height="84"></span></p>
</div>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody></table>
</span> </td>
</tr>
</tbody></table>
</span><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; text-indent: 27pt;"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;">DAKOTA KELLEY </span></b><b><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; color: black;"></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; text-indent: 27pt;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;">Project Designer | Energy Analyst</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;"> </span><span style="font-size: 8pt; color: black;">Office:
214.744.6199 </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 8pt; color: black;"> Cell: 214.280.3825</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 8pt; color: black;"> Fax: 214.744.0770</span><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;"> </span><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 8pt; color: black;"><a href="http://www.teliospc.com/" target="_blank">http://www.teliospc.com </a> 3535
Travis St. Suite 115</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 8pt; color: black;"><a href="mailto:dakotak@teliospc.com" target="_blank">dakotak@teliospc.com</a></span><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;"> </span><span style="font-size: 8pt; color: black;">Dallas, TX 75204</span><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 8pt; color: rgb(51, 51, 255);">| MEP ENGINEERING · ENERGY MODELING · LEED CONSULTATION ·
COMMISSIONING |</span><span style="font-size: 8pt; color: rgb(51, 51, 255);"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: FranklinGothic-BookCnd; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify;"><span style="font-size: 8pt; color: gray;">CONFIDENTIALITY
NOTICE: This email is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to
which it is addressed, </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify;"><span style="font-size: 8pt; color: gray;">And may contain
information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under
applicable law. If you</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify;"><span style="font-size: 8pt; color: gray;">are not the
intended recipient, please email the sender immediately, and delete this email
from all computers. Any </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify;"><span style="font-size: 8pt; color: gray;">distribution or
other use is strictly prohibited. Copyright © 2009 Telios Corporation.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify;"><span style="font-size: 8pt; color: gray;"> </span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="border-width: 1pt medium medium; border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> Brett M. West
[mailto:<a href="mailto:bwest@rmf.com" target="_blank">bwest@rmf.com</a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, July 22, 2010 8:01 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Equest-users] Unmet Load Hours Calc</span></p>
</div>
</div><div><div></div><div class="h5">
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">I have a question regarding
the way unmet load hours are calculated in eQuest. I have received the
following comments from the USGBC reviewer after submitting my energy model. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size: 10pt;">1.
The response narrative to preliminary comment 1 states that the SS-R reports
have been used to determine the number of unmet load hours for each case however
this method does not take into account coincident hours. Additionally, the
number of hours any system outside of throttling range is not the number of
hours the HVAC system is in operation but rather it is the number of hours each
zone exists during the building simulation, or 8,760 hours. Therefore the
number of unmet load hours is 333 in the Baseline case and 508 in the Proposed
case and the simulation does not meet the requirements of Section G3.1.2.2. If
appealing this credit please revise both cases using the prescriptions of
Section G3.1.2.2 until the number of unmet load hours is less than 300 for both
cases and the number in the Proposed case does not exceed the number in the
Baseline case by more than 50.</span></i><span style="font-size: 12pt;"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">I thought the unmet load hours
were calculated only during times when the fans are actually running in the
simulation. This is why I always pull my unmet hours from the SS-R report,
adding up the unmet hours for both cooling and heating for each individual
unit. I can also go into the SS-E report and calculate the number of hours my
fans are actually running and then calculate the total number of hours by using
the percentage of hours outside the throttling range given in the BEPS report. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">If you calculate the hours in
the manner the reviewer has outlined then there is no way to show which hours
are heating and which are cooling and you have to provide that breakdown in the
EAc1 template. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Any input on this topic would
be greatly appreciated.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Thanks in advance.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 12pt;">BRETT
M. WEST</span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">RMF
ENGINEERING<b></b></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">T:
843.971.9639 ext. 1499</span><span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">F:
843.971.9641</span><span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><a href="mailto:bwest@rmf.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">bwest@rmf.com</span></a></span><span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div></div></div>
</div>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
Equest-users mailing list<br>
<a href="http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org" target="_blank">http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org</a><br>
To unsubscribe from this mailing list send a blank message to <a href="mailto:EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG">EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Carol Gardner PE<br>
<div style="visibility: hidden; display: inline;" id="avg_ls_inline_popup"></div><style type="text/css">#avg_ls_inline_popup { position:absolute; z-index:9999; padding: 0px 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; width: 240px; overflow: hidden; word-wrap: break-word; color: black; font-size: 10px; text-align: left; line-height: 13px;}</style>