Boy, I guess it's been a long week for many of us. Since my name was brought up I thought I'd chime in. Thanks for the shout out, John<br><br>I was reading this email chain and thanking my lucky stars that I learned how to do this stuff back before dirt was invented and you had to enter your input deck line by line using BDL. It gave me a pretty solid background as it turns out. <br>
<br>It seems to me that some of you guys are spending entirely too much time in the Wizard doing things that might be able to be done easier in the DDedit. I know I've said this before. For instance if you think of an unconditioned zone for awhile you realize that it really doesn't matter what system it gets attached to, its unconditioned. You will see on your SV-A report that there isn't any cfm for it or any load. If there is you are doing something wrong. I always makesure that the space and the thermal zone are both labeled "unconditioned" because I don't trust eQUEST for a minute if there are inconsistencies. <br>
<br>So back the the utility of having a "reliable authority" dedicated to answering questions on this site. While I can't claim entire reliability, I ran across something last week that really had me trembling with trepidation, sorry it's Friday night after all, related to eQUEST.<br>
<br>If you'll remember I asked a question about EIR curve fits last week to which I received a resounding non response. I'm pretty sure I know why and it's probably bad news for the results we are giving people. I don't think people really know how to do curve fits properly. I know I learned something new as I researched and researched every where I could think of to find the answer. And even then I had to make a desperation call to one of the few real experts. <br>
<br>Some background on the problem: all curves using raw data need to be normalized around ARI data points except for refrigeration compressors, see Volume 2r written in 2008. So if you are entering a curve, say the cooling capacity as a function of the entering wet bulb and the outdoor dry bulb, you would have three lines of data: 2 independent and 1 dependent. The independents would be your selected wet bulb temperatures and your selected dry bulb temperatures. You are allowed to enter up to 20. The tricky part is when you specify the dependent value: the capacity. The person who I am helping with this model had simply entered the capacities as they varied based on the temps: 307 kBtu, 299 kBtu, and 292 kBtu (the ARI capacity), etc. [Note: I'm just making these numbers up.], and didn't normalize them around the ARI data point capacity. If they had the numbers would have been: 1.051, 1.024, 1.0, etc. And the file ran with no indication of an error anywhere. I've seen this over the years in some surprising places. It scares me because I don't know how the results are being effected. I guess no one else does either because I haven't heard anyone saying anything like "hey I entered bad data into eQUEST and it ran" or hey the LEED reviewer said XX, fill in the blank. <br>
<br>Anyway, back to the EIR curve-fit. With further research I found the actual equation that is being used in eQUEST which are EIRt = Cooling EIR * Cool-EIR-FT (EWB,ODB) * Cool-EIR-FPLR (PLR). That's when I asked my question to you all: what equation type do I use when there are three independents as there seem to be here - EWB, ODB & PLR. No answer. So I placed the call and was told that eQUEST solves the equation using 2 curves: the EIR varying based on the EWB and ODB, normalized around the ARI EIR as discussed above, and the EIR varying based on the part load conditions. I didn't know that before because I usually can avoid curve fits. In this case, however, I was modeling a VRF system so it's pretty much required since they are not like the current systems that are accessible to us. Luckily I had really good data from Daikin, although it took awhile to get it. I was modeling European units, too, just to further complicate things.<br>
<br>Anyway, lesson learned. Sorry to be so long winded, I kind of reminded myself of Nick here. Sorry, Nick, just kidding! Your answers do lean towards being thorough, though, but that's good. You have a great knowledge of how to use the Wizards as well as the DDedit. I think that in this case, though, my past experience of entering the line by line BDL really helped me. When we had to do that we had more time to think about how and why we were doing things and generally more access to the engineering formulas behind it all. With the friendly front ends we have now, and make no mistake I love them, modeling has become more of an art and less of a science. This is both good and bad. It's why I think that there is room for having a dedicated, experienced resources person for eQUEST as well as the users of this listserv. There's a lot to know and it takes time to learn it.<br>
<br>I rest my case.<br><br>Carol <br><br><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 7:21 PM, John Waller <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:jwaller@email.arizona.edu">jwaller@email.arizona.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><div>Nick,</div><div><br></div><div>You are absolutely right! My (so-called) feathers get ruffled way too easily, which is why I make a conscieous effort not to comment in here unless I'm 'mostly' confident that my contributions could even potentially benefit someone encountering a problem similar to one I've encountered in the past. Such constraint on behalf of all contributors would do wonders for such an environment. The quality of query in which I witness here for the most part is astonishing. (i.e. 'how do spell equest'?). Rather than doing the research on their own, or at the very least, exploring the 'onebuilding' query history, this platform makes it all too easy to ask the infamous 'stupid question', though I realize there exists no such thing. <span></span></div>
<div><span><br></span></div><div><span>I am beginning to believe that Carol is right in suggesting a more professional and reliable authority to more acurately respond to user querries. And someone else who suggested an eQUEST-wiki might just be spot on. Thought I will admit, in an age where electronic response has become the norm, there is certainly something something quite a bit more 'personal' about receiving a reply from a beating heart. </span></div>
<div><br></div><div>As such, it is my feeling, that any 'responder', should not respond so specifically so as to ignore the larger question an inquiry might be addressing, particularly when a prior responder has already replied and explicitly requests additional input on his offered solution.</div>
<div><br></div><div>In the spirit of community (as you have suggested) I would challange anyone who posits a potential solution to address the formal issue at large, rather than simply offering his(her) two-cents in contrast simply for the purpose of seeming 'right'.</div>
<div><br></div><div>To do so, I am sure, would more likely benefit the group as a whole. </div><div><br></div><div>John Waller <span></span></div><div><br></div><div><br><br>Sent from my iPhone</div><div class="im"><div>
<br>On Jul 16, 2010, at 2:55 PM, "Nick Caton" <<a href="mailto:ncaton@smithboucher.com" target="_blank">ncaton@smithboucher.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><div></div></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>
<div><div class="im">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Hi John,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">My perceptive powers are not the greatest, as my wife will
assure you, but I’m failing to see the reason to get any feathers need to
be hackled here (I did miss your reply, perhaps it wasn’t copied to the
list?)….</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">The reality that DOE2 has a “no child-zone left behind act”
of sorts is just the nature of the beast, and nobody is arguing that’s
unintuitive – it’s simply something we have to learn as we become
familiar with the engine. I don’t know that I’d expect this
issue to be resolved in the next major update as it’s something a user
can work around (unlike some other more pertinent issues), as Dakota is plainly
demonstrating with his (typically) thorough response.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Everyone is here to help each other, rest assured (^_^)b, those
who aren’t don’t stick around long, and Dakota’s certainly been
around for awhile! If you have a “more correct” or otherwise
better solution to handling unconditioned zones before or after the wizards, I
would personally like to know also – I do the same as Dakota. I
understand others simply ignore the zone grouping wizard screens altogether
(though I find them to be quite a time-saver), so his inclusion of “simply
do this” in detailed is very appropriate to the group at large…</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Wishing everyone a safe and happy weekend,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">~Nick</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><image001.jpg></span><b><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);"></span></b></p><div><div></div><div class="h5">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);"> </span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">NICK CATON, E.I.T.</span></b><b><span style="color: rgb(45, 77, 94);"></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 7.5pt; color: rgb(204, 153, 0);">PROJECT ENGINEER</span><span style="font-size: 7.5pt; color: rgb(204, 153, 0);"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">25501 west valley parkway</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">olathe ks 66061</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">direct 913 344.0036</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">fax 913 345.0617</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">Check out our new web-site @ </span></i><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><a href="http://www.smithboucher.com" title="blocked::www.smithboucher.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">www.smithboucher.com</span></a></span><u><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: blue;"> </span></u><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<div style="border-width: 1pt medium medium; border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">
<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>John
David Waller<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, July 16, 2010 3:16 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Dakota Kelley<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank"></a><a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] eQUEST unconditioned spaces</span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Maybe I was too vague in my reply.</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I, too, was hoping for some insight into this particular
issue.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">While I do believe this to be a software (developer)
oversight, I also believe that any offered solution(s) to such a 'problem'
could be handled with slightly more dignity; perhaps even some humility!</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">It is more likely that 'this' is a software issue more than
anything else. Hopefully this, and many other issues, will have been
addressed in '3.6.4'!</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">It makes absolutely no sense to me to assign a system to
'unconditioned space' that is being used to 'condition', condition space. Since
every 'space', or zone requires the assignment of a specific mechanical system,
then wouldn't it be likely [as in the 'real world' vs. our 'virtual' one, be
equipped with 'NO" system since it is 'NOT' conditioned, versus an
'operable' system that supplies conditioning to a space that requires such?
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">While it agreed that all zone 'must belong to a system', I'm
not convinced that your [emphatic] solution employs the ideal method for
addressing such an issue. It seems to me that you're placing her back to
the same point in which she came to discover such a unique condition. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Looking forward to a legitimate response!</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Sincerely--</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;">John<br>
<br>
</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 7:15 AM, Dakota Kelley <<a href="mailto:dakotak@teliospc.com" target="_blank"></a><a href="mailto:dakotak@teliospc.com" target="_blank">dakotak@teliospc.com</a>> wrote:</p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Amber,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">If I’m following your description, you must be
specifying the unconditioned zone in Shell Wizard/Screen 2/Zone Characteristics
button. Then you’re obviously specifying system-per-floor in the
HVAC wizard. This sounds like it should work, but what is happening is
Shell Wizard/Screen 14 settings are trumping Shell Wizard/Screen 2. There
are two solutions:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">1)</span><span style="font-size: 7pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Simply
change the zones to unconditioned in the detailed interface.</span></p>
<p><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">2)</span><span style="font-size: 7pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Create
a new zone group in Shell Wizard/Screen 14. Assign the unconditioned
zones to this group, and then make sure the “Conditioned” check box
is <i>not</i> checked. Assign the group to whatever system makes sense
and move on (making sure that at least one conditioned zone group is also
assigned to that system). All zones have to belong to a system, but if
they’re unconditioned their parent system is irrelevant. This
method is only slightly longer than the one above, but it lets you stay in the
wizard.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">If you try to leave an unconditioned “on its
own”, which I interpret as being assigned to its own single-zone system,
you’ll get an error saying every system has to have at least one
conditioned zone. Let me know if I have misunderstood you.</span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">
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<table style="width: 100%;" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%">
<tbody><tr>
<td style="padding: 0in;">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt;"><b>Error! Filename not specified.</b></span></p>
</div>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody></table>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody></table>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; text-indent: 27pt;"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;">DAKOTA KELLEY </span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; text-indent: 27pt;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;">Project
Designer | Energy Analyst</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;">
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;">
</span><span style="font-size: 8pt; color: black;">Office:
214.744.6199
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 8pt; color: black;">
Cell: 214.280.3825</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 8pt; color: black;">
Fax: 214.744.0770</span><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;">
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 8pt; color: black;"><a href="http://www.teliospc.com/" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://www.teliospc.com" target="_blank">http://www.teliospc.com</a>
3535 Travis St. Suite 115</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 8pt; color: black;"><a href="mailto:dakotak@teliospc.com" target="_blank"></a><a href="mailto:dakotak@teliospc.com" target="_blank">dakotak@teliospc.com</a></span><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;">
</span><span style="font-size: 8pt; color: black;">Dallas, TX 75204</span><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;">
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;">
</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
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<div>
<div style="border-width: 1pt medium medium; border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> Amber
Welsh [mailto:<a href="mailto:amber@timmonsdesigneng.com" target="_blank"></a><a href="mailto:amber@timmonsdesigneng.com" target="_blank">amber@timmonsdesigneng.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, July 15, 2010 9:23 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank"></a><a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Equest-users] eQUEST unconditioned spaces</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">What
is the best way to handle unconditioned spaces in eQUEST? Right now, I am
zoning it separate and calling it unconditioned in the WIZARD. Then, when
I assign systems, I am putting the unconditioned zone in a system with a
conditioned space and saying “ one system per floor”. Is this
the proper way to do it?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I
have tried just leaving the zone as unconditioned and on its own, but then when
I do the “permit submittal” calculation it still asks for the fan
flow and cooling capacity for that zone.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><b><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; color: black;">Amber Welsh, P.E. </span></b><b><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; color: rgb(217, 217, 217);">|</span></b><b><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; color: black;"> </span></b><b><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; color: rgb(166, 166, 166);">Associate</span></b><b><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><br>
</span></b><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(166, 166, 166);">LEED® Accredited
Professional</span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 8.5pt; color: black;"> <br>
397 5th Street NE,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 8.5pt; color: black;">Atlanta, GA 30308 <br>
(v) 404.810.9020<br>
(c) 678.488.1967<br>
</span><a href="http://timmonsdesigneng.com/" target="_blank"><span style="font-size: 8.5pt; color: red;">timmonsdesigneng.com</span></a><span style="font-size: 8.5pt; color: black;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><br>
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<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Carol Gardner PE<br>
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