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<P>Two situations:</P>
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<P>1) Matching energy use - accurate metering</P>
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<P>2) Matching energy bills - need first accurate energy measurement..THEN you need to input the rates correctly, including taxes..</P>
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<P>Don't confuse the two..</P>
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<P>My FOUR cents !!!!!</P><BR></DIV>
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<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> "Li, Lan" <lli@sbmce.com><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> Eric O'Neill <elo@MichaelsEngineering.com>; Nick Caton <ncaton@smithboucher.com>; David Bastow <dbastow@mcclure-engineering.com>; aazhari@jainconsultants.com; equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Thu, June 17, 2010 6:53:03 AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [Equest-users] Actual Building Energy Cost<BR></FONT><BR>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=blue size=2 face=Calibri><SPAN style="COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">In one of my learning course, the instructor mentioned that after they used eQuest simulated an existing campus, they were not able to have the simulation results to match utility bills close enough. It turned out that the economizer damper was on all the time and the some meters were set up wrong which leads the historical data was inaccurate. </SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT color=blue size=2 face=Calibri><SPAN style="COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Lan Li, PE</SPAN></FONT></B></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=#008040 size=1 face=Calibri><SPAN style="COLOR: #008040; FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt">Thank you</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=#008040 size=1><SPAN style="COLOR: #008040; FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt"></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT size=2 face=Tahoma><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT size=2 face=Tahoma><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Eric O'Neill [mailto:elo@MichaelsEngineering.com] <BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Thursday, June 17, 2010 8:11 AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> Nick Caton; David Bastow; aazhari@jainconsultants.com; equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [Equest-users] Actual Building Energy Cost</SPAN></FONT><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=#1f497d size=2 face=Calibri><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Nick,</SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=#1f497d size=2 face=Calibri><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">I should make it clear that my initial questions weren’t meant to drill David. I’m genuinely interested if the DOE projects required an extremely high level of technical accuracy on the input side. (Although they were also somewhat of a reaction to those requirements.) We have this discussion in our office every so often, and I’m usually somewhat on my own, but I’m still not convinced.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=#1f497d size=2 face=Calibri><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=#1f497d size=2 face=Calibri><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Would you mind elaborating a little more about why you feel this to be true:</SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=#1f497d size=2 face=Calibri><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">“HOWEVER: The concept of building a model for an existing building, whose modeled energy consumption/costs fall within a 1-2% of historical utility records, is entirely feasible – and a reasonable requirement if the goal is to generate a model for predictive purposes.” </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=#1f497d size=2 face=Calibri><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=#1f497d size=2 face=Calibri><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">So let me ask it this way. Let’s say you’ve got a model, and it’s coming in about 6% low (both heating and electric), but to the best of your knowledge everything is set up properly. You’ve got to start making some educated guesses to close the gap. Do you assume the boiler needs a tuning (drop your efficiency a few percent) and the AHU coils need to be cleaned (bump up your static)? Or do you bump up your infiltration slightly (because it’s probably not a very tight building). Or did some maintenance guy came along and switched on both the boiler pump manually on when he got a cold complaint, and no one returned them to auto? Or maybe you have data from a few years with abnormally warm summers and cold winters. I could go on practically ad nauseum. There’s just so many things that can be wrong with an existing building, as all of you
probably know.</SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=#1f497d size=2 face=Calibri><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Whatever you choose, that guess you make may interact (or lack an interaction) with some measures you’re predicting. So, predicatively, what makes a 1-2% off model better than a 5-6% off model unless you really spend the time and find out whether your inputs are accurate? </SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=#1f497d size=2 face=Calibri><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Cheers,</SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=#1f497d size=2 face=Calibri><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Eric</SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><B><FONT size=2 face=Tahoma><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT size=2 face=Tahoma><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Nick Caton [mailto:ncaton@smithboucher.com] <BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Wednesday, June 16, 2010 5:43 PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> Eric O'Neill; David Bastow; aazhari@jainconsultants.com; equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> RE: [Equest-users] Actual Building Energy Cost</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV>
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<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><FONT color=#1f497d size=2 face=Calibri><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">While I (and I am sure many others) have books to write regarding my thoughts on the topic, I think I might suggest a simple step back: The concept of <U>predictively</U> modeling to within a few percentage points of accuracy is ridiculous. There are simply way to many things that could not be known. HOWEVER: The concept of building a model for an existing building, whose modeled energy consumption/costs fall within a 1-2% of historical utility records, is entirely feasible – and a reasonable requirement if the goal is to generate a model for predictive purposes. How often such predictive models’ accuracy is misinterpreted is something I get depressed to think about.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><FONT color=#1f497d size=2 face=Calibri><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><FONT color=#1f497d size=2 face=Calibri><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">I haven’t done the DOE-modeling work that’s being referenced with such requirements, but I have done work for educational clients (physics/building science departments) who wish to get these models set up for ongoing study/tweaking purposes. The exercise is challenging, and as close as energy modeling gets to “fun,” when you can rest at ease knowing the client is fully on board with what the model is and isn’t. </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><FONT color=#1f497d size=2 face=Calibri><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><FONT color=#1f497d size=2 face=Calibri><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">It’s fully rational to squirm and cringe when you have to make models that you know will be mis-used and mis-understood, despite your best efforts. Fortunate is the practicing energy modeler who gets to work for fully educated clients and design teams all the time =).</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><FONT color=#1f497d size=2 face=Calibri><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><FONT color=#1f497d size=2 face=Calibri><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Rather than drill David, I think it would be safe to assume those DOE requirements exist to calibrate a model to a given degree to whatever historical records are available, NOT to mandate a level of accuracy for predictive purposes. If I’m wrong, I hope that work never crosses my desk!</SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><FONT color=#1f497d size=2 face=Calibri><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">~Nick</SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><B><FONT size=2 face=Tahoma><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT size=2 face=Tahoma><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Eric O'Neill<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Wednesday, June 16, 2010 4:52 PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> David Bastow; aazhari@jainconsultants.com; equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [Equest-users] Actual Building Energy Cost</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV>
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<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><FONT color=#1f497d size=2 face=Calibri><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">How much effort was put into minimizing the error of your inputs to justify that level of accuracy in your output? For example, did you convert real weather data for the two years and use an average of the simulations? Were you modeling small buildings so you could get a fairly reasonable infiltration rate empirically? Were occupancy schedules trended, and for how long? Were all the systems and controls working correctly, with all sensors calibrated regularly? </SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><FONT color=#1f497d size=2 face=Calibri><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">1 to 2% seems to me to be fairly unreasonable. Unless you do an amazing job verifying your inputs, in my opinion that level of precision doesn’t get you a better model. If you set everything up as best you can and it comes in there, great! But a correctly set up model can be off by over 2% because of a couple “El Nino” years, a facilities guy locking a humidity high limit to 50% for a summer, or any number of operational factors. On the other side of it, we’ve tried to match a simple DOE2.2 model to a DOE2.1e model with limited success (I don’t think we got within 3%, although we didn’t spend too much time with it). Who knows what the difference would be with E+.</SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><FONT color=#1f497d size=2 face=Calibri><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">I know I always squirm when I’m asked to do existing building models, and it may be irrational. Heck, if the DOE is asking for 1-2%, I probably am being irrational. But it seems to me that the error from assumptions could easily swing a model 1-2% (what would a 30% error on your infiltration do to an otherwise correct building?). What are other people’s thoughts? </SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><FONT color=#1f497d size=2 face=Calibri><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Eric</SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=MsoNormal><B><FONT size=2 face=Tahoma><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT size=2 face=Tahoma><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>David Bastow<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Wednesday, June 16, 2010 3:48 PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> aazhari@jainconsultants.com; equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [Equest-users] Actual Building Energy Cost</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV>
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<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=MsoNormal><FONT color=blue size=2 face=Arial><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">On all the DOE modeling projects that we have done, of an existing building, they have required the model to be within 1 to 2% or less of the actual energy usage, based on an average two year history. Is that what you are talking about?</SPAN></FONT><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=MsoNormal><EM><B><I><FONT color=blue size=6 face="Bradley Hand ITC"><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Bradley Hand ITC'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 24pt; FONT-WEIGHT: bold">David A. Bastow </SPAN></FONT></I></B></EM><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=MsoNormal><EM><B><I><FONT size=3 face="Rockwell Extra Bold"><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Rockwell Extra Bold'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-WEIGHT: bold">McClure Engineering, Inc. </SPAN></FONT></I></B></EM><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 1in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in" class=MsoNormal><B><FONT size=2 face=Tahoma><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT size=2 face=Tahoma><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Ahmed Azhari<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Wednesday, June 16, 2010 12:10 PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> [Equest-users] Actual Building Energy Cost</SPAN></FONT><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2 face=Calibri><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Hi all, </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2 face=Calibri><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2 face=Calibri><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Does anyone have a ballpark percentage of the <B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">actual</SPAN></B> annual energy cost versus the <B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">modeled</SPAN></B> annual energy cost for a building? </SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2 face=Calibri><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Thanks,</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=2 face=Arial><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=EN-CA>__________________________________________________________________________</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black size=2 face=Arial><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=MsoNormal><FONT color=#0f243e size=3 face=Calibri><SPAN style="COLOR: #0f243e; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Ahmed Azhari</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=#002060 size=3><SPAN style="COLOR: #002060; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">, </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=gray size=2><SPAN style="COLOR: gray; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">B.Eng., LEED® AP</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=#002060 size=3><SPAN style="COLOR: #002060; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=MsoNormal><FONT color=gray size=2 face=Calibri><SPAN style="COLOR: gray; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Energy Analyst</SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=MsoNormal><FONT color=#0f243e size=2 face=Calibri><SPAN style="COLOR: #0f243e; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Jain Sustainability Consultants Inc.</SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=MsoNormal><FONT color=gray size=2 face=Calibri><SPAN style="COLOR: gray; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">2260 Argentia Road</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=gray size=2><SPAN style="COLOR: gray; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">, 2nd Floor</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=MsoNormal><FONT color=gray size=2 face=Calibri><SPAN style="COLOR: gray; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Mississauga</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=gray size=2><SPAN style="COLOR: gray; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">, Ontario L5N 6H7 , CANADA</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=gray size=2><SPAN style="COLOR: gray; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=MsoNormal><FONT color=gray size=2 face=Calibri><SPAN style="COLOR: gray; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Tel: (905) 542 7211 Ext 234</SPAN></FONT></P>
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