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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Kat,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>The discussion copied below, and
particularly Dakota’s response on top, may help you to shape your solution.
If the restrooms only have an exhaust fan in the real design, with makeup air
from surrounding spaces, you probably shouldn’t be defining a system for
that zone…?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>~Nick<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><img width=119 height=37
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color:#2D4D5E'><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>NICK CATON, E.I.T.</span></b><b><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.5pt;color:#CC9900'>PROJECT ENGINEER</span><span
style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#CC9900'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><i><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E'>Check out
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style='font-size:10.0pt;color:blue'> <o:p></o:p></span></u></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoPlainText>-----Original Message-----<br>
From: equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Katherine
Roberts<br>
Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2010 8:33 AM<br>
To: equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
Subject: [Equest-users] Exhaust only zones with make-up air<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Dear eQUEST-users,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>I am trying to model a toilet zone with an exhaust only
system and which<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>uses make-up air from the surrounding space. I'm using a
UVT system to<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>try and simulate this but cannot get the 'hours outside
thermal-range'<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>to reduce - likely because there is no cooling in this
system and it is<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>not getting any cooled air from the surrounding zones.
Does anyone have<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>any ideas how to model this?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Thanks<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Kat<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Dr Katherine Roberts<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Engineer<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Environmental Physics London<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>13 Fitzroy Street<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Arup W1T 4BQ<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Tel: +0044 (0)207 755 5454<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Internal freecall: 55454<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>www.arup.com<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Dakota
Kelley<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, September 16, 2009 2:58 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Lars Fetzek; equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Routing exhaust air<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div id=idOWAReplyText37113>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Lars,</span><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>1)
Sounds like it should be "unconditioned" if you have no return air
devices in the core zone. Specifying unconditioned vs.
plenum depends on whether or not you want eQUEST to consider the zone to
be a return air path for its parent system. Plenum is like saying
"I'm not conditioned but I do impact the return air temperature" and
unconditioned is like saying "I'm not conditioned and I have no impact on
supply or return air". From what you described, it's definitely not
conditioned.</span><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>2)
If the zone is unconditioned, the parent system is irrelevant.
However, a parent system must always be defined for every zone per DOE2
protocol (no orphan zones, no orphan systems). If it's a plenum, it
should be assigned to the system to which the return air goes. </span><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>3)
My understanding is that eQUEST doesn't believe in passive exhaust between
zones. Without seeing the dynamics of the actual design, I would think
you could just exhaust directly from the office zone. I believe you're
trying to account for 1) exhaust fan power 2) the exhaust's heat extraction
from the office zone; exhausting directly from the office zone would accomplish
this. Whether the exhaust goes directly outside or through a
"middleman" zone isn't very important if the middleman zone is
unconditioned. So, I would argue that the core zone creates a low
pressure area that has to draw air from somewhere, and that somewhere is the
office zone. Yes, there's more of a delay involved with the indirect
method, but I wouldn't get too technical with it if we're only talking about a
couple hundred CFM. The biggest problem I see with what I've suggested is
if you're exhausting more than your OA CFM for the office zone. In that
case, the office zone's OA CFM will be increased to match the exhaust CFM.</span><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>On
the other hand, if we're talking about a big exhaust fan that is passively
exhausting a lot of air from multiple zones, you could take my
suggestion and break it up so that you're simulating smaller "direct"
exhaust fans for the affected zones - just make sure the individual fan
powers & flows add up to the real fan's power & flow.</span><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Thanks,</span><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Dakota
Kelley</span><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Telios
MEP Engineers</span><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Lars Fetzek [mailto:lfetzek@phoenixeng.us]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tue 9/15/2009 3:07 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Equest-users] Routing exhaust air</span><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>eQuesters,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue'>Some of you might recall the
e-mails (below, but probably not necessary to re-read) from early
August. Since then, my problem has simplified, but the solution is not so
clear to me.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue'>Basically, I have exhaust
fans for a particular shell located in a "core" zone made of
restrooms and an electrical room. No supply or return air devices
exist in this core zone. Rather, the core zone gets its air from transfer
through doorways (and maybe one passive transfer duct) from a large open office
zone. (Note: Insofar as the core zone does not have an HVAC system,
per se, Vikram's excellent previous answer seems inapplicable now.)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue'>Here are the questions:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>1. When using eQuest, shall I deem the core zone
"unconditioned" or "plenum" or "conditioned"?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>2. What HVAC system, if any, shall I tell eQuest that the
core zone belongs to? Is there even a way, if appropriate, to tell eQuest
that a zone does not belong to an HVAC system?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>3. How can I explain to eQuest that the office zone exhausts
(passively) to the core zone, which then exhausts via fans to the outside?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'> Thank you all in advance for your help - and to
Vikram for his previous response.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>Lars Fetzek, EI<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>Phoenix Engineering Group<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>Tampa, Florida<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'> Lars,<br>
<br>
Not sure if this is what you're looking to do. I haven't tried this for<br>
a chain of more than two zones, but you can specify the outside air<br>
coming from a particular zone in eQUEST using the "OA-FROM-SYSTEM"<br>
keyword. You have to be careful with this to define the OA system before<br>
the system it feeds (i.e. if system 1 has an OA-FROM system2, but system<br>
2 has not been defined yet in the INP file, you will get an error. <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Another thing to watch out for is that when you use the OA-FROM, I don't<br>
think eQUEST calculates the cooling effect of the ventilation air. You<br>
might have to trick the program into accounting for that using an<br>
internal energy source (process) with a negative value. This is easier<br>
with a constant volume OA supply, but if you really want to you could<br>
write a schedule for the VAV supply - it's pretty tricky. <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Vikram Sami, LEED AP <br>
Direct Phone 404-253-1466 | Direct Fax 404-253-1366 <br>
<br>
LORD, AECK & SARGENT ARCHITECTURE<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
From: </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'><span class=MsoHyperlink><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>equest-users-bounces
at lists.onebuilding.org</span></span><br>
</span><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>[mailto:</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'><span class=MsoHyperlink><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>equest-users-bounces
at lists.onebuilding.org</span></span></span><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>] On Behalf Of Lars<br>
Fetzek<br>
Sent: Monday, August 10, 2009 9:47 AM<br>
To: </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'><span class=MsoHyperlink><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>equest-users
at lists.onebuilding.org</span></span><br>
</span><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Subject: [Equest-users] Exhaust air routes<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Hello,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
The building floor that I am presently modeling has several<br>
conditioned zones and two unconditioned zones. The conditioned zones<br>
are various offices. The unconditioned zones are restrooms and an<br>
electrical room. The conditioned zones exhaust to each other and,<br>
ultimately, to the unconditioned zones via hallways, doorways, etc. The<br>
unconditioned zones exhaust to the outside (via fans).<br>
<br>
How can I explain to eQuest that, for example, conditioned
zone A<br>
exhausts to conditioned zone B? Also, how can I explain to eQuest that<br>
conditioned zone D exhausts X% to the electrical room (and thus to<br>
outdoor exhaust fans) and Y% to conditioned zone C?<br>
<br>
In case it matters, the ceiling is open and the return
ductwork<br>
terminates in one spot. Accordingly, even return air must flow among<br>
the conditioned zones.<br>
<br>
Thanks, as always, for your helpful replies.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Lars Fetzek, EI<br>
<br>
Phoenix Engineering Group<br>
<br>
Tampa, Florida<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</span></div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Lars Fetzek [mailto:lfetzek@phoenixeng.us] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, September 15, 2009 3:36 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Bach Tsan'; 'equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Equest-users] Input/Schedules/Unused parameters ;what is
ok to delete?</span><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>Bach,</span><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>
</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>Yes, I have. However, the technique is beyond
explanation. Just trial-and-error, using the DOE2-2 dictionary, and
gradually learning and torchering yourself will lead you to successful .inp
editing. Nobody can really teach or explain this.</span><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>Lars Fetzek, EI</span><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>Phoenix Engineering Group</span><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>Tampa, Florida</span><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</span></div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Bach
Tsan<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, August 19, 2009 11:58 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Equest-users] Input/Schedules/Unused parameters ;what is ok to
delete?</span><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>Hello fellow equest users,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>I was wondering if anyone has tried to clear out all unused
parameters prior to running the equest model?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>I notice that the software “loads” all the
schedules and parameters; and if deleting them in the .inp file would speed
things up. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>I tried it with a default sample model, but got various errors
since some items are required for the model to run. Has anyone generated a
script to run to clear all unnecessary items before running the model?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>Thanks<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Arial Narrow","sans-serif";
color:black'>Bach Tsan PE, LEED AP</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
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