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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=572104115-20052010><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>In defense of LEED modeling: although I am not a LEED
AP, I understand that energy savings is not the primary goal. To judge it
by energy conservation standards, therefore, is unfair. My bag is energy
conservation program impact evaluation engineering, and I rely somewhat on DOE2
modeling. To help circumvent the GIGO problem, I strive for as much real
audit data as possible and calibrate the models carefully to customer billing
data whenever possible. But I must admit that energy conservation modeling
results of buildings in the design stages must be considered as unverified
predictions (at least for a year or two). On the other hand, if
applied carefully by experienced engineers and architects, they're
generally more reliable than simpler methods, and definitely better than
nothing.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=572104115-20052010><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=572104115-20052010><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Perhaps it is time for the energy conservation community,
including myself, to push for something nationally in commercial
building design that strives for the same effect as Energy Star does for
the residential sector. But, recently, new energy codes seem to be
going in that direction with a reasonable level of aggression, if we can
overcome the problem of inconsistent enforcement.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=572104115-20052010><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=572104115-20052010><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>John seems to have unusually strong negative feelings
about the modeling approach, but I appreciate his willingness to express
his opinions because they help keep (or make) us building energy modelers more
honest and humble.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=572104115-20052010><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=572104115-20052010><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Yours truly,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=572104115-20052010><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Glenn</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Nick
Caton<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, May 19, 2010 4:17 PM<BR><B>To:</B> eQUEST Users
List<BR><B>Cc:</B> Gregory Sarkisian, P.E.; Ray Yunk<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[Equest-users] Voodoo Engineering<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">John
et al,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">I
am merely a young EIT of 2 and some-odd years, but I and surely most other
practicing MEP designer/modelers fully sympathize with your frustrations.
ASHRAE/IESNA 90.1 (and through it, LEED) is certainly not yet a perfect
standard… but the driving committees will be quick to point out nobody is saying
it is (and may solicit you to volunteer/contribute to development). In any
case, it’s what we must work under today... So we have to come to terms with the
beast =)!<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">[
CAUTION: Skip this paragraph if you aren’t interested in 90.1 nuances – you’ll
risk glazing your eyes over! ]<o:p></o:p></SPAN></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">The
core baseline/proposed issues you mention are agreeably arguable on a
fundamental level! To pick up on your example, a glass box (well, up to
40% technically) certainly has more opportunity to demonstrate exemplary
performance over its baseline than an opaque one under the current
ruleset. I think however most elements of the current baseline/proposed
system, including the flat 20% glazing alternative you propose, is a
damned-if-you-do/damned-if-you-don’t situation for the standard
developers… In my modeling experience (from an annual energy
consumption/cost perspective): “optimal glazing percentages” are not always 0%
(sometimes they are), and can vary a LOT building-to-building when daylighting
controls enter the mix. <U>Site shading</U>, <U>building element
self-shading</U>, <U>permanent/operable window shades</U>, and
<U>orientations</U> <B><I>of course</I></B> all play vital roles in determining
a meaningful optimal window/wall ratio for any given space, but 90.1 Appendix G
as written nullifies <B><I>each</I></B> of these variables in a somewhat
heavy-handed fashion for the baseline model (sometimes the proposed also).
I understand the purpose of these measures is generally to help us easily
determine savings/losses based on a concept of “energy conscious building/site
orientation” (which I’d argue is kind of silly in and of itself), but it’s
simultaneously dumbing-down our comparative results (moving them further from
reality). Removing self-shading/permanent shades for example can both hurt
and help the baseline/proposed comparative performance – it’s inconsistent
depending on the climate and building facade shape/orientation... I think
these rules are built partly on the assumption that shades are always beneficial
for annual energy consumption.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">[
END OF CAUTION ]<o:p></o:p></SPAN></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">To
come back to the surface, I sleep at night by making one thing very clear to any
owners/architects that care to listen (though I’ve learned some don’t want to
hear it): LEED-certified buildings, even those with lots of energy
modeling credits, do not inherently consume less energy or pay lower utility
bills than un-certified buildings*. Comparative LEED energy models by
design are not and should not be misconstrued by building owners as modeling
reality. As John touches on and Carol is getting at: modeling
“reality” before a building is built is guesswork at best, and is much harder
and more complex than earning any LEED credits. Modeling “reality”
post-construction and assuming historical bills/behaviors will repeat themselves
in the future is also fundamentally guesswork – too much rides on the
variability of actual building occupant behavior and actual weather.
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Not
to cheapen anyone’s credentials**, but when one fully understands that all
energy modeling is to some small/large degree guesswork, it’s so much easier to
grasp that, even at its most complex, <U>energy modeling is simply a tool to
make decisions with</U>. In the right hands: a darn useful tool, even =)!
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">~Nick<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">*If
anyone isn’t following – I would consider the following article (notably dated)
required reading for anyone practicing LEED energy modeling, if only for
practical perspective:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><A
href="http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/insights/mis2014leed2014ing/">http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/insights/mis2014leed2014ing/</A><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">This
is notably a sidebar to the following, also insightful & tongue-in-cheek
article by the same author:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><A
href="http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/insights/bsi-007-prioritizing-green2014it-s-the-energy-stupid">http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/insights/bsi-007-prioritizing-green2014it-s-the-energy-stupid</A><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">It’s
not hard to google and find similar studies – LEED buildings, even those earning
high certification levels, can easily consume more energy than their
un-certified modern counterparts.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">**
I know, easy for me to say!<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><IMG
id=_x0000_i1027 height=37 alt=cid:489575314@22072009-0ABB
src="cid:572104115@20052010-2EFE" width=119 border=0></SPAN><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #2d4d5e; FONT-FAMILY: 'Stylus BT','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #2d4d5e; FONT-FAMILY: 'Stylus BT','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #2d4d5e; FONT-FAMILY: 'Stylus BT','sans-serif'">NICK
CATON, E.I.T.</SPAN></B><B><SPAN
style="COLOR: #2d4d5e; FONT-FAMILY: 'Stylus BT','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; COLOR: #cc9900; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">PROJECT
ENGINEER</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; COLOR: #cc9900"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #2d4d5e; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">25501
west valley parkway<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #2d4d5e; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">olathe
ks 66061<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #2d4d5e; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">direct
913 344.0036<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #2d4d5e; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">fax
913 345.0617<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><I><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #2d4d5e; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Check
out our new web-site @ </SPAN></I><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><A
title=blocked::www.smithboucher.com href="www.smithboucher.com"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">www.smithboucher.com</SPAN></A></SPAN><U><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">
</SPAN></U><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><IMG
id=_x0000_i1026 height=37 alt=cid:489575314@22072009-0ABB
src="cid:572104115@20052010-2EFE" width=119 border=0></SPAN><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #2d4d5e; FONT-FAMILY: 'Stylus BT','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #2d4d5e; FONT-FAMILY: 'Stylus BT','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #2d4d5e; FONT-FAMILY: 'Stylus BT','sans-serif'">NICK
CATON, E.I.T.</SPAN></B><B><SPAN
style="COLOR: #2d4d5e; FONT-FAMILY: 'Stylus BT','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; COLOR: #cc9900; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">PROJECT
ENGINEER</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; COLOR: #cc9900"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #2d4d5e; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">25501
west valley parkway<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #2d4d5e; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">olathe
ks 66061<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #2d4d5e; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">direct
913 344.0036<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #2d4d5e; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">fax
913 345.0617<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><I><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #2d4d5e; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Check
out our new web-site @ </SPAN></I><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><A
title=blocked::www.smithboucher.com href="www.smithboucher.com"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">www.smithboucher.com</SPAN></A></SPAN><U><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">
</SPAN></U><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">
equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Gregory
Sarkisian, P.E.<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, May 19, 2010 2:16 PM<BR><B>To:</B>
'eQUEST Users List'; bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[Equest-users] Voodoo Engineering<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Rockwell">For my two
cents worth, all computer simulations are relative to something, not absolute.
Energy baseline models are relative to actual utility bills. Anything within
5-10% is considered solid. All proposed models are relative to this good
baseline. But as one of the replies mentioned this proposed model should always
be verified in the real world.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Rockwell"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Rockwell">Same is
true from my days in the auto industry. We create finite element models to
predict low and high speed crash simulations. We had actual performance of
previous production models to baseline from, but must always verify by actual
test. You would be amazed at how close we could get. Once the model is
correlated to the actual test results all variances built into the model can be
deemed reliable.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Rockwell"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Rockwell">Building
simulation models are much simpler, and in my mind very reliable – if the inputs
are correct. I have not tried all of the different modeling tools, but eQuest
provides a relatively friendly user-interface.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Rockwell"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Rockwell">Gregory Sarkisian,
P.E.</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:line id="_x0000_s1026" style='position:absolute;
z-index:1' from="0,0" to="3in,0" strokeweight="2.25pt" /><![endif]--><![if !vml]><SPAN
style="Z-INDEX: 1; POSITION: relative; mso-ignore: vglayout"><SPAN
style="LEFT: -2px; WIDTH: 292px; POSITION: absolute; TOP: -2px; HEIGHT: 4px"><IMG
height=4 src="cid:572104115@20052010-2F05" width=292
v:shapes="_x0000_s1026"></SPAN></SPAN><![endif]><SPAN
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<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> Carol Gardner
[mailto:cmg750@gmail.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, May 19, 2010 12:42
PM<BR><B>To:</B> Eurek, John S NWO<BR><B>Cc:</B> eQUEST Users List;
bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Equest-users] Voodoo
Engineering<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt">John, you army guy
you...<BR><BR>I suggest that you embrace the art part and get good at the
science. Your model will be just as good as your input. Whats that old saw? When
you point the finger you have 3 others pointing back at you. While some modeling
tools might be close to beta and hard to use, eQUEST isn't one of them. Each new
version has bugs, but those are relatively few and are fixed quickly. You use
energy modeling to predict the energy use and energy cost of a baseline and
proposed buildings. Here in Oregon we actually do follow-up and make sure the
predicted came close to the actual. We call it model verification. I would
recommend that you spend more time learning the art, gathering the info,
creating an actual weather file if the typical one's aren't good enough for you,
and very carefully inputting the data into your modeling tool of choice. I'd be
happy to offer you peer review services if you ever want to make sure your work
is accurate.<BR><BR>Best,<BR>Carol<BR><BR>PS I resent the heck out of LEED
paperwork and am afraid they are rulemaking creativity out of buildings. I've
seen it happen over, and over, and over.....<o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 9:19 AM, Eurek, John S NWO <<A
href="mailto:John.S.Eurek@usace.army.mil">John.S.Eurek@usace.army.mil</A>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>Varkie, I read your attached paper.<BR><BR>"Energy programs
are external to the design process. The results are not used<BR>to generate
construction drawings." This may be my #1 beef with energy<BR>modeling.
What is the purpose?<BR><BR>If you say, to save energy... It does
not.<BR><BR>I think of an artist who "wants" a glass box building. Then
some intelligent<BR>people come along and explain that this design would waste
energy. They<BR>convince him to have a smaller building with less glass.
The change of design<BR>just saved a lot of energy..... Is this counted in the
model? No.<BR><BR>Why do we compare our buildings to themselves? I
can design a turd and<BR>polish it to LEED standards. Where are the points
for having a well designed<BR>building over a poor design? The baseline
should have 20% glass... Period.<BR>If I use 10% glass I am saving energy.
Even better would be a set BTU/Ft^2,<BR>you can do whatever you want as
long as you meet the GPM like measure.<BR><BR>As an engineer, I think about the
numbers a lot. With LEED (energy modeling)<BR>if I have very efficient
equipment I can show more energy savings by<BR>increasing windows. (The
more my model uses the equipment, the more the<BR>efficiency difference shows
up.) Then I can play all day with people<BR>schedules, infiltration, and
ect. (All I have to do is justify what I used.)<BR><BR><BR>I have been involved
in only 4 buildings which required energy modeling. We<BR>used innovative new
technologies. 3 of the building could not be modeled due<BR>to limitations
of the energy modeling programming. (One design used the<BR>rejected heat
from the heat pump for reheat instead of going into the loop<BR>field. The
other I used a split system and placed the condensing unit in the<BR>mechanical
room for free heat.)<BR><BR>Why are we being made to follow LEED (energy
modeling) when the tools to do<BR>it are so primitive. Some (Blankety
blank blank *$%#!&$) is having us go<BR>someplace where the technology is
not reached. (Beta testing sucks)<BR><BR>It feels like we are smoking
unfiltered cigarettes, driving cars with no<BR>seatbelts, and painting with lead
paint. People are going to look back at<BR>what we did and wonder how we
couldn't see how dumb we were. I see it now.<BR><BR>There has got to be a
better way. A better way to show we are saving energy.<BR>The sooner we
find it, the better.<BR><BR>I found out last week that the person who's position
I filled left because of<BR>LEED (energy modeling). I can't stand this
obvious misguided attempt to save<BR>the world. As a person who values
logic, every day suffering this ill-logic<BR>is torturous.<BR><BR>John
Eurek<BR>LEEP AP<BR><BR>P.S. Eric the energy model IS a statistical analysis.
You assume a weather<BR>pattern, you assume a occupantacy schedule, you
assume the activity level,<BR>you assume the amount the printer is used, the
computer use, the number of<BR>times the elevator is used. You assume
everything about a pretend senario<BR>and get a pretend number.<BR><BR>There
must be a better way to prove an energy efficient design. (My
company<BR>usually works late hours, most people do, are we to model this?
We could, we<BR>could not, we can make up so much.) We need a solid
baseline... Not<BR>statistical models.<BR><BR>P.P.S. It will all be
smoke and mirrors until start looking at actual energy<BR>usage per square foot.
If you want to use models to predict it, okay.<BR>Results matter, but not
in LEED (energy modeling).<BR><A
href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvCP3s7Xq48"
target=_blank>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvCP3s7Xq48</A><BR><BR><BR><BR>-----Original
Message-----<BR>From: Varkie C Thomas [mailto:<A
href="mailto:thomasv@iit.edu">thomasv@iit.edu</A>]<BR>Sent: Wednesday, May 19,
2010 10:08 AM<BR>To: Eurek, John S NWO<BR>Subject: Voodoo
Engineering<BR><BR>Academia institutions and research centers tend to attach
disproportionate<BR>amount of importance to energy modeling. Most them
have not dealt with real<BR>buildings. Attached are my views on energy
modeling.<BR><BR>----- Original Message -----<BR>From: "Eurek, John S NWO"
<<A
href="mailto:John.S.Eurek@usace.army.mil">John.S.Eurek@usace.army.mil</A>><BR>Date:
Wednesday, May 19, 2010 8:14 am<BR>Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Compliance rule
set for Oregon<BR><BR>><BR>> I would prefer Lynn work to
ban/destroy/do-away-with energy modeling.<BR>><BR>> Any chance this
voo-doo engineering will go away any time soon?<BR>> It is only<BR>>
statistical analysis with no meaningful/useful results for
anyone.<BR>><BR>> As a community I think we are going in the wrong
direction for the<BR>> rightgoals.<BR>><BR>> -----Original
Message-----<BR>> From: <A
href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</A><BR>>
[mailto:<A
href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</A>]
On Behalf Of Carol<BR>> Gardner<BR>> Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2010 12:30
AM<BR>> To: Scott Criswell<BR>> Cc: <A
href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</A>;
<A href="mailto:curt.strobehn@eesinet.com">curt.strobehn@eesinet.com</A><BR>>
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Compliance rule set for Oregon<BR>><BR>>
All,<BR>><BR>> Lynn Bellenger will soon be the first female president
of<BR>> ASHRAE..ASHRAE is<BR>> 117 years young. Lynn's goal is to improve
energy modeling. She is a<BR>> PE and a BEMP and a LEED AP. She has even more
letters after her name<BR>> but you will have to ask her. She deserves every
one of them. Lynn<BR>> rocks. If I was a betting woman, I would bet on Lynn
to try to get<BR>> this done. You will see I have attempted to cc her on
this. I have<BR>> also bcc'd her to make sure she gets the
message.<BR>><BR>> A good night to all and to all a good
night!<BR>><BR>> Carol<BR>><BR>><BR>> On Tue, May 18, 2010 at
4:01 PM, Scott Criswell<BR>> <<A
href="mailto:scott.criswell@doe2.com">scott.criswell@doe2.com</A>>wrote:<BR>><BR>><BR>>
There is no work to my knowledge either proposed or under
development<BR><BR>> that would result in 90.1-2004 or 2007 compliance
analysis.<BR>><BR>> -
Scott<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> Paul Buchheit
wrote:<BR>><BR>> Hello
Scott,<BR>><BR>> Thanks
for the help on this question.<BR>>
Is there anything available now or in the works for ASHRAE<BR>>
90.1-2004 or 2007 compliance analysis?<BR>><BR>>
Thanks again,<BR>><BR>>
Paul<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>
Paul Buchheit<BR>>
Mechanical Engineer<BR>>
EESI<BR>>
phone: 541-754-1062<BR>>
fax: 541-753-3948<BR>>
<A
href="mailto:paul.buchheit@eesinet.com">paul.buchheit@eesinet.com</A><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>
----- Original Message -----<BR>>
From: Scott Criswell <mailto:<A
href="mailto:scott.criswell@doe2.com">scott.criswell@doe2.com</A>><BR>><BR>>
To:
<A href="mailto:curt.strobehn@eesinet.com">curt.strobehn@eesinet.com</A><BR>>
Cc:
<A
href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</A><BR>>
Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2010 2:41 PM<BR>>
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Compliance
rule set for<BR>> Oregon<BR>><BR>>
Correction on Carol's response
-<BR>>
There is no "compliance analysis" ruleset for either<BR>> Oregon or
90.1-2004. What Carol was referring to in eQUEST v3.63 (and<BR>> later)
is a jurisdiction-based defaulting mechanism within the<BR>> building<BR>>
creationwizard(s) that includes Oregon-specific selections and<BR>> defaults
(which are based on the Oregon energy code).<BR>><BR>>
Compliance
Analysis is quite a different feature.<BR>> The CA Title-24 compliance
analysis feature enables users to press the<BR>> compliance analysis button
in the interface (the button Curt pressed<BR>> which resulted in the message
he circulated) to initiate a mechanism<BR>> that performs a complete,
performance-based compliance analysis on the<BR>> proposed buildingdesign
loaded into eQUEST.<BR>>
Two additional features are on the near horizon
with<BR>> regards to compliance analysis in eQUEST -<BR>>
(1) a LEED
baseline generation ruleset which does not<BR><BR>> perform a complete LEED
analysis but does generate a LEED (90.1-2007<BR>> Appendix-G) baseline model
based on a user's proposed design.<BR>> This is<BR>> included in v3.64
which should be made available in the coming weeks<BR>> (pending CEC
certification).<BR>>
(2) compliance analysis based on Canada's MNECB<BR>>
ruleset - to be included in a Canadian derivative of eQUEST, called<BR>>
CAN-QUEST. Not sure of the exact release date for CAN-QUEST, but I<BR>>
can tell you that users are training on it today @ the eSIM conference<BR>>
in<BR>> Winnipeg.<BR>>
There is nothing in the works to my knowledge
in<BR>terms<BR>> of developing a compliance analysis capability for
Oregon.<BR>><BR>>
- Scott<BR>><BR>><BR>>
Carol Gardner
wrote:<BR>><BR>>
Hi Curt.<BR>><BR>>
The Oregon rule set is in VS 3.63. I helped<BR>> Scott
put it there. When you select your city in Oregon you will see<BR>> the
Oregon rules. In your email you say 90.1-2004. The Oregon<BR>> compliance
rule set is probably 2004 I just don't have time to confirm<BR>> for
sure.<BR>><BR>>
Good Luck,<BR>>
Carol<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>
On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 2:12 PM, Curtis<BR>> Strobehn <<A
href="mailto:curt.strobehn@eesinet.com">curt.strobehn@eesinet.com</A>>
wrote:<BR>><BR>><BR>>
Hello all,<BR>>
Need help.<BR>>
Is there an ASHRAE 90.1-2004 rule set<BR><BR>> file that can be
downloaded and used<BR>>
for compliance<BR>>
analysis.<BR>><BR>>
See attachment<BR>><BR>>
Thanks,<BR>><BR>>
Curt<BR>><BR>><BR>>
EESI<BR>>
phone: 541-754-1062<BR>>
fax: 541-753-3948<BR>>
<A
href="mailto:Curt.strobehn@eesinet.com">Curt.strobehn@eesinet.com</A><BR>>
<A
href="mailto:paul.buchheit@eesinet.com">paul.buchheit@eesinet.com</A><BR>><BR>><BR>>
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--<BR>>
Carol Gardner
PE<BR>><BR>><BR>>
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<P class=MsoNormal><BR><BR clear=all><BR>-- <BR>Carol Gardner
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