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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Paul,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I have been lukewarm on air cooled chillers lately but the integral
water side economizer coil options and now your heat recovery are interesting
efficiency twists.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>How you stage and control the chiller and the heat pumps will be
an interesting challenge.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>You started by asking the chiller so I will stick with that.
(Plus I can't take the time to understand your full scenario).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Trane has a water side heat recovery application guide available
on their website for purchase or you might be able to get it from the selling
rep.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>It is based on water cooled heat recovery chillers (which is why
I am reading it today) but it may be valuable to you especially if they do not
have one for your product.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>My recollection is that is easy to plug heat into a DOE-2 model (as
a process loads etc so) I think you need to focus on determining<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>1) the cooling performance of the unit as you intend to operate
it<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>2) the profile of heat available for recovery (magnitude and
timing)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>3) usable portion of that heat based on your heating load
profile<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>To what temperature and how often are you going to maintain a
condenser temperature higher than the outside air conditions would require so
you can recover heat?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Answering that question may inform your modeling path and
specifically your chiller selection (air cooled, air cooled with remote
condenser, water cooled, heat recovery, etc)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>The air cooled with remote condenser looks interesting for its
purported ability to control condenser temperature.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Either way I expect you will need some creative sequencing and
custom performance curves to model this. Good luck,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Paul Riemer<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Dunham<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Paul
Brooks<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, May 07, 2010 11:09 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Matthew Dubrovich<br>
<b>Cc:</b> equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Complex chiller/heat recovery/heat pump to
model question<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>Matt:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>So far, I have not been able to
model the chiller as such. I am an advanced beginner modeler, and am not
totally sure on what I can do in detail mode. But, I had hoped I
could...but it appeasr I cannot model the chiller in heat recovery<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='margin-left:.5in;text-align:center'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
<hr size=1 width="100%" align=center>
</span></div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:
12.0pt;margin-left:.5in'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Matthew Dubrovich
<mdubrovich@emcengineers.com><br>
<b>To:</b> Paul Brooks <equestpaul@yahoo.com><br>
<b>Cc:</b> "equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org"
<equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Fri, May 7, 2010 11:57:57 AM<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Equest-users] Complex chiller/heat recovery/heat pump to
model question</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'>Hi Paul,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'>Though I haven’t had the opportunity to use either yet,
eQuest has options for both heat recovery chillers and heat pump chillers,
correct? You can tie the heat recovery chiller into your hot water loop
and it should show both a heating savings and condenser fan savings
(eliminating those hand calcs hopefully). The heat pump chillers can be
sequenced through Equipment Controls and Load Management to only come on as
necessary, after the 165 ton chiller is maxed out. Coupling the heat
pumps with your hot water system may be more of a challenge. Good luck.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'>Matt<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><b>From:</b> equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Paul
Brooks<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, May 07, 2010 9:26 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Carol Gardner<br>
<b>Cc:</b> equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Complex chiller/heat recovery/heat pump to
model question<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'>Yes, I did.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'>Yes, it is an air-cooled Trane Chiller that has total energy
recovery. It is a non-US product, made by Trane in Europe. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'>The concept is that the chiller provids chilled water, and
the energy recovery side provides hot water for reheat at VAV boxes
when needed.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'>In addition, there are two heat pumps (reversible chillers as
the liturature says)that will pprovide additional capacity to etther the
chilled water loop or the hot water loop as needed.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'>This is for a 110,000 sf high end office building in
Uruguay. Uruguay is ASHRAE climate zone 3, similar to the
US southeast, primarily Georga/northern Florida.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'>Links to product information:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'>Chiller with energy recovery: <a
href="http://doc.trane-eur.com/marketing/cdtrane.nsf/PdfByName/RLC-PRC026-E4_1205.pdf/$file/RLC-PRC026-E4_1205.pdf">http://doc.trane-eur.com/marketing/cdtrane.nsf/PdfByName/RLC-PRC026-E4_1205.pdf/$file/RLC-PRC026-E4_1205.pdf</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'>Heat pumps: <a
href="http://doc.trane-eur.com/Marketing/CdTrane.nsf/PdfByName/CG-PRC015-E4_0708.pdf/$file/CG-PRC015-E4_0708.pdf">http://doc.trane-eur.com/Marketing/CdTrane.nsf/PdfByName/CG-PRC015-E4_0708.pdf/$file/CG-PRC015-E4_0708.pdf</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'>I am thinking i will need to do a lot of hand calcs for energy
use of the chiller and how much "free" heating water I will
get. the hard part is going to be how to account for saving by not
running condenser fans. Yes, it will be a challenge to get it through
GBCI review, but if the logic is sound, it will not be that hard.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'>Any suggestions on how to wet up a model in eQuest to
minimize amount of hand calculations?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='margin-left:.5in;text-align:center'>
<hr size=1 width="100%" align=center>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><b>From:</b> Carol Gardner <cmg750@gmail.com><br>
<b>To:</b> Paul Brooks <equestpaul@yahoo.com><br>
<b>Cc:</b> equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Fri, May 7, 2010 1:54:56 AM<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Complex chiller/heat recovery/heat pump to
model question<br>
<br>
It looks like you stunned everyone into silence, Paul.<br>
<br>
So you have 1) an air cooled chiller, 2) heat recovery sending HW to only your
reheat coils, 3) 2 air cooled heat pumps that can also provide cool or hot
water to circulation loops, 4) french hens, and a partridge in a pear
treee...OOPS, its late!<br>
<br>
This looks like entropy to me. Try once more to share all of this. I would
suggest an itemized list that identifies the equipment type, it's specific use,
it's model no. etc. and any comments. Maybe an excel spreadsheet would work
best. <br>
<br>
Another issue: this project will be neigh on impossible for a LEED reviewer to
review, too. That is neither good or bad, it just is. <br>
<br>
I will help you as I can, when I can, but I must work for food too. Nobody pays
me, yet, to help anyone.<br>
<br>
Keep the faith,<br>
Carol<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'>On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 1:47 PM, Paul Brooks <<a
href="mailto:equestpaul@yahoo.com">equestpaul@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'>I am modeling a building in Uruguay that has a Trane 165 ton
Air cooled chiller, (RTAD 165 SE, not available in US.) In addition to
air-cooling, the chiller has a heat exchanger to recover heat for whatever
use you want. Obviously the heat recovery means that in the right
condisitons the condenser fans will not run as much.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'>For this application, the heat is to be recovered
to provide heating hot water VAV box re-heat coils. In
addition to this, there are two air cooled heat pumps (CXAN 214, not
available in US) that are available to augment the chiller or the hot wateer
loop.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'>So, my dilemma, is how to model this in eQuest. I
am still more or less a novice user. I am in the detail mode,
and see that I can do some things with condenser water, but then how
do I model the condenser fans? How do I tie in the heat pump loops?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'>Lastly, this is a LEED model. So, any thoughts on how
to get data and then do hand calcs to prove savings are also
welcome. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'>Thanks!<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'>If interestede in seeing info on the equipment, go to <a
href="http://trane-eur.com/">Trane-eur.com</a>. information is available
in english for these models. Your local trane rep will probably not be able to
help.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><br>
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To unsubscribe from this mailing list send a blank message to <a
href="mailto:EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG">EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p>
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