My apologies also for cross-posting. Bldg-rate does not know me and I simply do not have time to correct that right now.<br><br>First, please, please all of you, keep this sort of discussion on line where it needs to be! I can't imagine why it would go offline for any other reason except for two: people are afraid they might say something <b>wrong, or people are afraid someone or some organization might in some way get back at them.</b> I, for one, refuse to live like that. It's possible that every one of you is smarter than me, but I think we all make mistakes and have concerns. So be it.<br>
<br>Second, wow it's a day of lists for me, I no longer have to worry about gaming the system in that I am no longer a project engineer. I am very clear that I do not ever intentionally do it myself on any of my projects. I meet the technical requirements that are placed before me with as much integrity as possible.<br>
<br>As do all of you.<br><br>Please speak up and don't be afraid of anyone or any organization. <br><br>Personal regards to all of you,<br><br>Carol<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 4:31 PM, Nick Caton <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:ncaton@smithboucher.com">ncaton@smithboucher.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Firstly, apologies for the cross-posting, but it appears this topic
has grown include many lists so I can’t come up with an alternative!</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Secondly, a huge thanks to Carol, James and a large number of
others (who shall remain unnamed until they should decide to join the public
discussion) who have given me direct input on their personal thoughts, outside
of the mailing lists.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I have received a flood of suggestions regarding approaches when
the intent is to follow the 25% rule, and additionally regarding how one might
go about appeasing a USGBC LEED model reviewer when attempting to document a
lower figure. My impression up until this point, based on colleagues’
experience/advice, has been that attempting to substantiate anything less than
25% process loads would be a futile task and would be flatly rejected. As a
result I never really considered this to be an option available to us LEED energy
modelers. I now understand that for many, documenting something less than 25% has
proven a feasible, if occasionally exhaustive, task.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">When the intent is to follow the 25% baseline process load prescriptive
requirement, I have been exposed (again outside of the lists) to a surprising
number of unique viewpoints and seemingly legitimate approaches which have led
to successfully reviewed LEED model submissions for others.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Among the approaches to build the process loads to 25% are:</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><span>-<span style="font: 7pt "Times New Roman";">
</span></span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Adding a single direct internal/external load to the project
electrical meter in addition to the designed space equipment loads – this approach
avoids additional internal heat gains.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><span>-<span style="font: 7pt "Times New Roman";">
</span></span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Adding additional or redefining designed space equipment loads,
adding internal heat sources. If and when these additional loads should result
in too many unmet cooling hours in the proposed model, there are two basic approaches:</span></p>
<p style="margin-left: 1in;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Courier New"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><span>o<span style="font: 7pt "Times New Roman";"> </span></span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Specify
larger system cooling capacities and/or airflows</span></p>
<p style="margin-left: 1in;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Courier New"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><span>o<span style="font: 7pt "Times New Roman";"> </span></span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Allow
those systems cooling capacities/airflows to auto-size</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><span>-<span style="font: 7pt "Times New Roman";">
</span></span></span><u><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Keeping</span></u><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> the designed space
equipment loads without adding any further, but modifying their utilization
schedules to increase space equipment usage during non-peak cooling hours – this
of course adds heat to the models, but avoids unmet cooling hours due to clashes
with proposed system cooling capacities.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I sincerely hope Carol and others will not misunderstand… Myself
and others do not wish to “game the system,” but we seem to have a variety of
viewpoints as to what the intent is for the 25% rule. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">If it may help and add to the discussion, my personal opinion
leading up to this inquiry has been that the default 25% rule exists simultaneously
as a means of normalizing the “difficulty level” of attaining LEED EAc1 points
for projects with various actual process loads. Perhaps at some point in time,
somebody decided it would be unfair for someone designing a LEED Platinum
toolshed with zero process loads to have an easier time of it than some poor
sucker trying to get some EAc1 credits for an automotive manufacturing facility
with immense process loads?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I will unfortunately be unable to participate in or respond to
this topic of discussion for some time as I will be away from my inbox. I very
much look forward to gaining a better understanding of how we as a group might
come to agree on a “best practice” for this issue. If anyone should currently
have access to a relevant CIR that would probably be very useful.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">A humble thanks again to everyone,</span></p><div class="im">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">~Nick</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><img src="cid:image001.jpg@01CAE893.495A1F40" alt="cid:489575314@22072009-0ABB" width="119" height="37"></span><b><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);"></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);"> </span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">NICK CATON, E.I.T.</span></b><b><span style="color: rgb(45, 77, 94);"></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 7.5pt; color: rgb(204, 153, 0);">PROJECT ENGINEER</span><span style="font-size: 7.5pt; color: rgb(204, 153, 0);"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">25501 west valley parkway</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">olathe ks 66061</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">direct 913 344.0036</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">fax 913 345.0617</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">Check out our new web-site @ </span></i><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><a href="http://www.smithboucher.com" title="blocked::www.smithboucher.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">www.smithboucher.com</span></a></span><u><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: blue;"> </span></u><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
</div><div style="border-width: 1pt medium medium; border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">
<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Carol
Gardner<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, April 30, 2010 5:12 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a>; eQUEST Users List<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Bldg-sim] Fwd: [Bldg-rate] LEED+90.1 Process/Plug Loads
Conundrum</span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"> </p>
<div><div><div></div><div class="h5">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;">---------- Forwarded message
----------<br>
From: <b>Carol Gardner</b> <<a href="mailto:cmg750@gmail.com" target="_blank">cmg750@gmail.com</a>><br>
Date: Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 2:40 PM<br>
Subject: Re: [Bldg-rate] LEED+90.1 Process/Plug Loads Conundrum<br>
To: James Hess <<a href="mailto:JHess@tmecorp.com" target="_blank">JHess@tmecorp.com</a>>,
Nick Caton <<a href="mailto:ncaton@smithboucher.com" target="_blank">ncaton@smithboucher.com</a>>,
Karen Walkerman <<a href="mailto:kwalkerman@gmail.com" target="_blank">kwalkerman@gmail.com</a>><br>
Cc: "<a href="mailto:bldg-rate@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-rate@lists.onebuilding.org</a>"
<<a href="mailto:bldg-rate@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-rate@lists.onebuilding.org</a>><br>
<br>
<br>
Hi Nick,<br>
<br>
I'm glad you raised this issue. <br>
<br>
First, I agree with James, and have heard from other people, that LEED accepts
documentation saying something as basic as "hey, I don't have 25% plug
loads".<br>
<br>
Second, when you have to create a baseline to measure up from, you are forced
to say what that baseline is. For instance, in 1985-86, working on the
BPA-funded Energy Edge project, we had to figure out the baseline for a group
of buildings being designed to exceed the current energy codes by 30%. We
didn't have a baseline then. To deal with this we assembled a group of people
that we euphemistically called The Greybeards (so sorry to you all). The tables
now known as G3.1.1A & G3.1.1B in Standard 90 came out of what we created
in that moment of time. We were trying to limit what is called "gaming the
system"<br>
<br>
So now it seems it has been deemed important to control the baseline a little
more: by specifying plug loads at 25%. The goal of trying to limit gaming the
system might be the source of the 25%. The danger which Nick has clearly
demonstrated in his email is that what is meant to control gaming the system,
may now actually be creating it.<br>
<br>
Further thoughts/comments welcome,<br>
<span style="color: rgb(136, 136, 136);"><br>
Carol</span></p>
</div></div><div><div><div></div><div class="h5">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 1:42 PM, James Hess <<a href="mailto:JHess@tmecorp.com" target="_blank">JHess@tmecorp.com</a>> wrote:</p>
</div>
</div>
</div></div><blockquote style="border-width: medium medium medium 1pt; border-style: none none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0in;">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div><div><div></div><div class="h5">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">This is a good question. On prior projects we have
worked on, I have found that you can have less than 25% plug loads, so long as
you have some documentation to back it up.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">For example, we are currently working on a prison
project. The plug loads are very low for obvious reasons; they don’t
provide stereos, computers, ipods, TV’s, etc. to the inmates (typically, all
they get is an alarm clock/radio that uses ~ < 10 watts). There is no
way on this project that we could get the plug loads to come in at 25% unless
we artificially jacked them up to levels that would never exist in
reality. We would have a similar problem in that the Proposed Design
equipment would not be able to cool the spaces. So, we just document the
loads we do have and I believe we are good. The project has been through
the 1<sup>st</sup> review and this has not come up as an issue. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I believe we have had other projects where we documented
the loads we had and passed the review with no problems. We will
typically develop a simple spreadsheet and document the internal loads that
each room has. That is easy enough to do these days I believe, for most
applications. For example, a typical desktop computer uses about 65 watts
on average, monitor = ~ 45 watts (depending on size), clock radio ~ 10 to 15
watts, etc. you get the point. (get a “Killawatt” power meter from Amazon
and have some fun taking some measurements to see approximately how much power
stuff uses, guaranteed to provide hours of fun).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Just provide some documentation on some good reasonable
estimates for the loads and I think you will be fine.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">An alternate method is to use default values from Table
G-B from the ASHRAE 90.1-2007 Users Manual.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">For example, the Receptacle Power Density for the Office
Building Type is 0.75 watts/SF per Table G-5.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">If using that value results in the process loads being
less than 25%, my comment to the reviewers would be that the 0.75 watts/SF is
the value determined by ASHRAE to be appropriate for the building type.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I think the most important thing is to use something
reasonable and defendable, and make it the same between the Baseline and
Proposed Design energy models. Our experience indicates that it does not
have to be exactly 25%, can be less than 25% or greater than 25%, depending on the
building.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">One thing that is interesting is that on federal
projects, per EPACT requirements, you do not have to factor in the
process/recep loads for the purpose of determining whether the 30% savings requirement
has been met. That makes it easier to show 30% savings. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;">Thanks!</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;">Regards,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;">JAH</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(0, 176, 80);"> </span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(0, 176, 80);">James A. Hess, PE, CEM</span></i></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Senior Energy Engineer</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">TME, Inc.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Little Rock, AR</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Mobile: 501-351-4667</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;"> </span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="border-width: 1pt medium medium; border-style: solid none none; padding: 3pt 0in 0in; border-color: -moz-use-text-color;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> <a href="mailto:bldg-rate-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-rate-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:bldg-rate-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-rate-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Nick Caton<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, April 30, 2010 12:55 PM</span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt;"><br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:bldg-rate@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-rate@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Bldg-rate] LEED+90.1 Process/Plug Loads Conundrum</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Something
new occurred to me this week and I’d love to hear others’ thoughts!</p>
</div></div><div>
<div><div><div></div><div class="h5">
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">LEED
prescribes baseline/proposed energy models to follow ASHRAE 90.1 with a
caveat: the “process energy costs” must total 25% of the baseline energy
costs. By extension, 90.1 requires the same loads/schedules be applied to
the proposed model as they have to match. As an aside, the LEED EAc1
templates appear to calculate/check this using process energy consumption (not
cost), but that’s not what I’m getting at…</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I
just had a typical case where I had to inflate the baseline internal
miscellaneous equipment loads to get to 25%. These additional loads were
substantial enough that when applied to the proposed model/design, I ran into
many unmet cooling hours for the equipment capacities entered. </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Then
I realized: We can define additional equipment electricity loads but
simultaneously apply a multiplier (in eQuest anyway – I expect this is feasible
other programs also) to reduce/negate the corresponding heat load
contributions. This results in the energy consumption/costs showing up
correctly in the final results/reports, but does not artificially inflate the
internal loads that the baseline/proposed systems must handle.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Would
this practice (which incidentally can be a time saver) of accounting for extra
process/miscellaneous loads without extra thermal contributions be in line with
the intent of ASHRAE/USGBC? It would still normalize the otherwise
unstandardized process consumption/costs of the baseline/proposed models between
different building types…</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">On
the other hand, if it really is the intent of USGBC to add arbitrary additional
internal heat loads to our models that our actual designs were not designed and
sized for, does it follow that we should allow the proposed models to autosize
cooling equipment/fan capacities and not specify them (this would seem
incongruous with 90.1 to me)?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">~Nick</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div></div><p class="MsoNormal"><b>Error!
Filename not specified.</b></p><div class="im">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="color: rgb(45, 77, 94);"> </span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">NICK CATON, E.I.T.</span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 7.5pt; color: rgb(204, 153, 0);">PROJECT ENGINEER</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">25501 west valley parkway</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">olathe ks 66061</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">direct 913 344.0036</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">fax 913 345.0617</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">Check out our new web-site @ </span></i><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><a href="http://www.smithboucher.com" title="blocked::www.smithboucher.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">www.smithboucher.com</span></a></span><u><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: blue;"> </span></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div><div class="im">
<div>
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</div></blockquote>
</div>
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