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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>At least one of the ICF companies is using
“effective” R-values for their products. I attended a Home Show
recently and was told R-50 for a concrete wall with only four inches of foam
board:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><a
href="http://www.arxx.net/ICF_INSULATED_CONCRETEFORMS_r50.htm">http://www.arxx.net/ICF_INSULATED_CONCRETEFORMS_r50.htm</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>They claim benefits of thermal mass and
reduced infiltration to justify the value.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>As Karen <span class=GramE>said,</span>
best to model the actual wall construction layers.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Bill<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b style='mso-bidi-font-weight:normal'><font size=2
color=black face="Franklin Gothic Medium Cond"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Franklin Gothic Medium Cond";color:black;font-weight:bold;
mso-bidi-font-weight:normal;mso-no-proof:yes'>William Bishop, EIT, BEMP, LEED<sup>®</sup>
AP </span></font></b><b style='mso-bidi-font-weight:normal'><font size=2
color="#006600" face="Franklin Gothic Medium Cond"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Franklin Gothic Medium Cond";color:#006600;font-weight:bold;
mso-bidi-font-weight:normal;mso-no-proof:yes'>|</span></font></b><b
style='mso-bidi-font-weight:normal'><font size=2 color=black
face="Franklin Gothic Medium Cond"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
"Franklin Gothic Medium Cond";color:black;font-weight:bold;mso-bidi-font-weight:
normal;mso-no-proof:yes'> </span></font></b><b style='mso-bidi-font-weight:
normal'><font size=2 color=black face="Franklin Gothic Medium Cond"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Franklin Gothic Medium Cond";
color:black;font-weight:bold;mso-bidi-font-weight:normal;mso-no-proof:yes'>Pathfinder
Engineers & Architects LLP</span></font></b><b><font size=2 color=black
face="Franklin Gothic Medium Cond"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
"Franklin Gothic Medium Cond";color:black;font-weight:bold;mso-no-proof:yes'><o:p></o:p></span></font></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=1 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
9.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;mso-no-proof:yes'>Mechanical Engineer<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=1 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
5.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;mso-no-proof:yes'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><st1:address
style="BACKGROUND-IMAGE: url(res://ietag.dll/#34/#1001); BACKGROUND-REPEAT: repeat-x; BACKGROUND-POSITION: left bottom"
tabIndex="0" w:st="on"><st1:Street w:st="on"><font size=1 color=navy
face=Arial><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;
mso-no-proof:yes'>134 South Fitzhugh Street</span></font></st1:Street><font
size=1 color=navy><span style='font-size:9.0pt;color:navy;mso-no-proof:yes'><br>
</span></font><st1:City w:st="on"><font size=1 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;mso-no-proof:yes'>Rochester</span></font></st1:City><font
size=1 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy;mso-no-proof:yes'>, <st1:State w:st="on">NY</st1:State> <st1:PostalCode
w:st="on">14608</st1:PostalCode></span></font></st1:address><font size=1
color=navy><span style='font-size:9.0pt;color:navy;mso-no-proof:yes'><br>
</span></font><font size=1 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:navy;mso-no-proof:yes'>T: (585) 325-6004 </span></font><font
size=1 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black;mso-no-proof:yes'>Ext. 114</span></font><font size=1 color=navy><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;color:navy;mso-no-proof:yes'><br>
</span></font><font size=1 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:navy;mso-no-proof:yes'>F: (585) 325-6005</span></font><font
size=1 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:9.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;mso-no-proof:yes'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=1 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
9.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;mso-no-proof:yes'>wbishop@pathfinder-ea.com<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=1 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
9.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;mso-no-proof:
yes'>www.pathfinder-ea.com</span></font><font color=navy><span
style='color:navy;mso-no-proof:yes'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=5 color=green face=Webdings><span
style='font-size:18.0pt;font-family:Webdings;mso-bidi-font-family:Webdings;
color:green;mso-no-proof:yes'>P</span></font><font color=green><span
style='color:green;mso-no-proof:yes'> </span></font><font size=1 color=green><span
style='font-size:7.5pt;color:green;mso-no-proof:yes'>Please strive to live
sustainably.</span></font><font color=green><span style='color:green'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Carol Gardner<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, April 22, 2010
6:30 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> Karen Walkerman<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b>
equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [Equest-users]
Thermal Mass Wall and R-Value</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>I agree with Karen. I
have another thought though: could this be an insulating concrete form wall
(ICF) wall? Google ICF for info.<br>
<br>
Carol<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 2:39 PM, Karen Walkerman <<a
href="mailto:kwalkerman@gmail.com">kwalkerman@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>The best thing to do is model the actual wall construction, not just an
equivalent R-value, then you will get both the thermal resistive and the mass
effect properties in the model.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>--<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Karen<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 12:30 PM, Rob Hudson <<a
href="mailto:rdh4176@gmail.com" target="_blank">rdh4176@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>That is the answer i was expecting to here. thanks for your input<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 12:27 PM, Bruce Easterbrook <<a
href="mailto:bruce5@bellnet.ca" target="_blank">bruce5@bellnet.ca</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>That doesn't sound right. Poured concrete has an R-value around
0.08/inch. When "effective" is used commercially it normally is
a hocus pocus addition for the mass effect but shouldn't be much more than
10%. eQuest would calculate it as a lag effect based on the mass, so a
steady state value would be most appropriate.<br>
Bruce Easterbrook<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
<br>
On 22/04/2010 10:38 AM, Rob Hudson wrote: <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>When creating a model, i noticed that the R-value of the concrete i am
using is the "effective" R-value, rated at 22. Should i use
this or should i ask the concrete manufacturer for a steady-state R-value which
will be much more accurate based on the materials?<br clear=all>
<br>
-- <br>
Rob Hudson<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Equest-users mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><a
href="http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org"
target="_blank">http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>To unsubscribe from this mailing list send<span style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span>a blank message to <a
href="mailto:EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG" target="_blank">EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><span style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></blockquote>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
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<a href="http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org"
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To unsubscribe from this mailing list send a blank message to <a
href="mailto:EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG" target="_blank">EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
<br clear=all style='mso-special-character:line-break'>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>-- <br>
<font color="#888888"><span style='color:#888888'>Rob Hudson<br>
</span></font><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
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<br>
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