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<font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"> I think it has come to
me, basically eQuest is saying you don't have enough cooling capacity
at a certain point in your simulation. </font>To get the cooling you
need, the air has to come off the coil cooler than 6F above the
entering water temp. In a FCU you just increase the water flow, coil
size, you get the cooling you need, you would see unmet hours but the
program won't necessarily kick out an error message. You will get more
condensation. Because condensation is not allowed in a chilled beam
you can't do this, the temperature of the coil has to stay above the
dew point. The only way for eQuest to do that is to limit water flow
to the coil. You get less cooling. The program has a quandary and
kicks out that error message. You have to add more units, run them at
a lower water flow or you drop the dewpoint of your room air so you
have more capacity with the 6F eQuest restriction.<br>
The 56F CWT helps, your summer design (Long Beach) 84DB/66MWB, the
DP is 56F. eQuest is restricting you to 62F DB off the coil to prevent
condensation. In reality you can't drop your water temperature because
that just increases condensation with a chilled beam. With a FCU that
is an option. The options are to move more 62F air to meet the room
cooling load with the chilled beams (use more) or shift more load to
the DOAS (bigger). Your tip point is changing. Shifting load to the
DOAS will also reduce your room DP though I don't know if eQuest will
give you credit for that. You will increase your costs because you are
bringing in more outside air than you need. More chilled beams also
increases cost. Moving more air increases costs. To reduce outside
air, you need return air. The DOAS is now an AHU. This can be good
because you get an economizer, free cooling and you can do latent
cooling on the return air. You have a high CWT so I assume you have a
ground loop or some other cheaper cooling source than mechanical
cooling? That being true then moving more air is an economical option.<br>
I'm sorry I don't have time right now to look at your files and see
your exact situation. All this stimulus and energy efficiency stuff
has got me loaded down too. Good time to be a mech. Sucks to still be
on the computer at 7:30 Friday night. Hopefully I have given you some
clues to resolve your situation.<br>
Bruce<br>
<br>
On 09/04/2010 04:32 PM, Greg Collins wrote:
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I have
tried it, but I end up
getting an error saying the leaving air temp off the coil needs to be
at least
6F higher than the entering water temp to the coil, and for some reason
I don’t
get the same error for the FCU. In an active chilled beam, the coil is
actually
just cooling the room induction air, then mixing it with the primary
air from
the DOAS. I think that equest assumes the air mixes before entering
the coil,
which fundamentally is the same thing, but the numbers trip this error
message.
I’ll look into more why the FC system doesn’t make that happen, but
the two seem
to be essentially the same system except for the fan (which I make
0.000001
kW/cfm anyway).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div
style="border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; border-width: 1pt medium medium; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; color: windowtext;">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; color: windowtext;">
Grando, John
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:JGrando@cosentini.com">mailto:JGrando@cosentini.com</a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, April 09, 2010 1:00 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Greg Collins; Bruce Easterbrook<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Equest-users] Active Chilled Beam/Fan Coil System<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: blue;">Have
you looked into SYSTEM TYPE = IU (Induction Unit).
This may be a better path to try.</span><span
style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; color: windowtext;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; color: windowtext;"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p><br>
<b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: blue;">John
Grando</span></b><b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">
</span></b><b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: blue;">LEED
AP</span></b><b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">| </span></b><b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: gray;">Mechanical
Engineer</span><br>
</b><br>
<br>
<span style="font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"> </span> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; color: windowtext;"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; color: windowtext;"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><span
style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; color: windowtext;">
<hr align="center" size="2" width="100%"></span></div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; color: windowtext;">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; color: windowtext;">
Greg
Collins [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:GCollins@glumac.com">mailto:GCollins@glumac.com</a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, April 09, 2010 2:00 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Bruce Easterbrook<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Active Chilled Beam/Fan Coil System</span><span
style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; color: windowtext;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Bruce,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I agree
with your theory and the
justification, but the question is ultimately “how to model it?” I
don’t
think you can put in negative heat for a baseboard system, hook it up
to a
chilled water loop and get results you can count on. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Greg<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; color: windowtext;">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; color: windowtext;">
Bruce Easterbrook
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:bruce5@bellnet.ca">mailto:bruce5@bellnet.ca</a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, April 09, 2010 8:59 AM<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Active Chilled Beam/Fan Coil System<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> I'm not totally up on using DOAS with
eQuest or with chilled beams being in Canada but it would seem to me
the OA
will have to be used to control humidity in the space. The chilled
beam
should not be used for latent cooling, sensible only, to prevent
condensation
issues. The DOAS will need to control the dewpoint of the room air and
maintain it below the operating temperature of the coil in the chilled
beam. The chilled beam would only be dealing with the sensible load
from
the space. The DOAS would do everything else. The question would be
will eQuest allow a single zone AHU c/w economizer and a baseboard
system with
negative heat? I have never tried that with eQuest.<br>
Bruce Easterbrook<br>
Abode Engineering<br>
<br>
On 08/04/2010 04:46 PM, James Hansen wrote: <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I’m
interested in this as well –
I know that in DOAS systems like active chilled beams, the primary air
often
takes on a fairly large chunk of space latent cooling, and if this
can’t be
passed on from the DOAS system to the space, then I don’t see how we
can
believe the results.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
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style="font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: teal;">GHT
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Hansen</span>,
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">Senior
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VA
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="color: rgb(49, 132, 155);"> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div
style="border-style: solid none none; border-color: windowtext -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; border-width: 1pt medium medium; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";"> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Greg Collins<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, April 08, 2010 4:39 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Equest-users] Active Chilled Beam/Fan Coil System</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi all,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I’m working on modeling an active chilled beam
system.
It consists of the chilled beams and a dedicated unit to provide
primary air
(mainly ventilation air) to the beams at 55 degrees. I’ve modeled the
chilled beam system as a fan coil system, but am wondering about my
options for
modeling the primary air. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">My question is this: If I attach the
primary/ventilation air unit to the fan coil system in the FC’s Outdoor
Air tab
under “Outside Air from System” will the temperature of the air coming
from
that unit have an impact on the load in the space? I have a ton of
hours
at very low load during the winter months, and I want eQuest to use the
55
degree primary air as the first stage of cooling for the space and not
“double
up” the cooling energy by cooling the 55 degree air and then not use
that for
cooling in the zones.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">If anybody has some input, it would be
appreciated. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">Greg
Collins</span></b><span
style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman","serif";"><br>
</span><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">Design
Engineer / Energy Analyst</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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Department</span><span
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</span><span
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Accredited Professional</span><span
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<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
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