<div><font color="#cc33cc">Nick-(who asked the question),</font></div>
<div><font color="#cc33cc"></font> </div>
<div><font color="#cc33cc">In-short, I have over 10 yrs simulation experience. Started using DOE2.1e in code form before there was a user interface--thank god for user interfaces, and especially ones that are free--such as eQuest. I've been using eQuest since 2004.</font></div>
<div><font color="#cc33cc"></font> </div>
<div><font color="#cc33cc">My responses are inserted as follows:<br></font></div>
<div><font color="#cc33cc">Pasha Korber</font></div>
<div><font color="#cc33cc">PK Consulting</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 6:23 PM, Bruce Easterbrook <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:bruce5@bellnet.ca">bruce5@bellnet.ca</a>></span> wrote:<br>
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<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#ffffff"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Hi Nick and Nick,<br>I have spent a year or so using E-Quest and a decade using different forms of the DOE engine and other various modelling programs. I also have 20 years with ASHRAE. I'm not an expert with E-quest but have spent some crazy hours on it. I only recent discovered this forum and for a year toiled in darkness. I will insert my comments below.<br>
</font>
<div class="im"><br>Nick Caton wrote:
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<p class="MsoNormal">Hi Nick (I like your name!),</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I’m an intermediate learner and user of eQuest (not an expert/developer), so your perspective may match mine some months down the road. Here’s my short/sweet answers – obviously different for others but here we go:</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><span style="COLOR: red">… I only use the schematic wizard or DD wizard for monthly energy estimates, because I do not understand the detailed inputs and how it works, but I would like to. <br>
</span></p></div></blockquote></div><font color="#009900">I always start with the SD and an Autocad drawing. Get the basics in (geometry and basic construction) and let the program size everything. Size windows and doors on percentages, standard everything. The initial key is to get the program running and not freezing. Look at the error reports and fix them, or at least the one which matter. Some of the errors are not really errors. Once that is looking good do a save as and start a new branch. Get into the DD and start tweaking. One at a time, save and start a new branch each time.</font>
<div class="im"><br><font color="#cc33cc">I always start with the DD Wizard and then switch to DDedit mode. I suppose there isn't much difference in which wizard you start with the primary reason for using a wizard to start is to (on a basic level) establish: 1) the building type & applicable building schedules (i.e. MFHR vs. Office.), 2) Custom building footprint & zoning (always import a CAD file if you can, I have done the xy-coordinate input and it is not fun., 3) input your overall basic parameters from a 'one-input to all-zones' approach including LPD's, Zonal controls, occupancy/sqft, etc. The wizards are great for your basic level-all applicable inputs for the whole building.--In DDedit mode you do this zone by zone--large/complex buildings can have 100's of zones. You'll need to learn and get comfortable with DDedit mode, good simulations are performed in this mode. Results of the wizard inputs are too broad especially for compliance simulations.</font></div>
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<div> </div>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I use eQuest primarily as an energy modeling tool, and only rarely as a design (loads calculation) tool. eQuest is great for making energy-concious design decisions (i.e. will option A or B save me more $$/yr?), and powerful with regards to modeling for LEED and such, but it’s a big clunker if all you need are loads to size equipment. I started with the same thoughts as you, but now regard the wizards as a tremendous time-saver to set yourself up for “real” work in the detailed mode.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><span style="COLOR: red">Are most people using these wizards and then get into the detailed</span></p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: red">modeling or do you go straight into detailed parametric modeling?</span></p></div></blockquote></div><font color="#009900">I use it initially to size systems, basic heat loss for the building, and then start dealing with ASHRAE 62.1. It will dominate all loads. Still let the program size everything. Start your zoning. Everything in incremental steps, save and branch before each new step. I do not recommend going straight to detailed modelling. The program is quirky and doesn't like certain things or methods. If it crashes your error messages are limited and cryptic. You could easily get 20 to 40 hours into a building detail and the program won't run. You can then spend half that trying to figure out what is wrong. If you can't, you go back to square one. Been there done that. It is smarter to have a saved tail, you only have to go back a step or two and work out the difficulty. Preserve the file, start a new branch. Remember this program is huge and complex and very picky. It produces 500+ pages of data. One major error and it freezes. Keep it running!<br>
</font>
<div class="im">
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<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: red"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#cc33cc">See answer above, and parametric modeling is used primarily for ECM's--this is how you compare "different models" in the same file--for LEED complaince, technically you would build the proposed model in the file and then use the parametric runs to run your baseline parameters for the baseline model. The approach here is to build your proposed building design model and then "back off" the design values to the ASHRAE (or other) baseline values, thus creating your baseline simulation.</font> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">For a complex model, I use the DD or SD wizards to the fullest extent, then spend most of my time tweaking things within the detailed mode for most projects. I occasionally spend a small amount of time delving into typing stuff up in the .inp file to account for specific things, but I didn’t begin picking that up until I had a number of projects under my belt.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><span style="COLOR: red">…do you get into detail modeling of the building with all spaces</span></p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: red">and zones…</span></p></div></blockquote></div><font color="#009900">You go as complex as the job requires. I so far have managed to stay out of tweaking the .inp file. I prefer to tweak/trick the program using the DD. There are many ways to skin a cat, you just have to find the way the program accepts your input to get your tweak. There are many run arounds mentioned in the forum to accomplish different tasks. Remember this program is evolving. It is state of the art but that is changing fast.</font>
<div class="im"><br>
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<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: red"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#cc33cc">I had a project about a year ago that was an ice rink. DOE2.2 can do this simulation, but eQuest has not developed a formal module to make ice rink inputs easy for the user. In this case I had no choice but to go into the .inp file in order to get out what I needed. (This is where the flashbacks come from the programming classes back in engineering school.)</font> <font color="#cc33cc"> If I don't have to do it, then everythings is better for it--it's just another complex level of this already complex software--isn't it amazing though that there are software programs that are doing these types of simulations? Just wait until dynamic system simulation becomes available--just think of the modeling problems we will have then? lol</font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I try to model as much of the geometries as I can in the wizards. I have edited/created geometries/rooms/zones/etc… after the fact (it’s not as hard as it seems). It is unquestionably faster and less prone to error within the wizards however.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><span style="COLOR: red">…or do you generalize the building zones as the tutorial recommends…</span></p></div></blockquote></div><font color="#009900">Yes, start simple, go to complex.</font>
<div class="im"><br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#cc33cc">Simplify as much as possible, but be sure not to over simplify--when this happens you delete the file you were working on and start all over. Modeling is like chess-you have to plan your moves before you execute them.</font> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Yes. Same overriding concept as any loads calc program (like HAP).</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><span style="COLOR: red">and is it worthwhile to import autoCAD files to help model</span></p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: red">the building?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Absolutely.</p></div></blockquote></div><font color="#009900">The only way to go. Input points anti-clock wise.</font>
<div class="im"><br>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#cc33cc">yep.</font> </p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><span style="COLOR: red">Can you compare several different building models in the</span></p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: red">same file and show comparison reports? <br></span></p></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote>
<div><font color="#cc33cc">Yes, by way of using the parametric runs to establish your ECM's. In the parametric runs you have a lot of flexibility of what you change. I also learned last year, when I took a training class from Marlin Addison, that we can use Global Parameters to set up simplified inputs to the model and then use these inputs to quickly and easily change the inputs to run our ECM's--with this approach however, it is changing the whole model file and outputs which doesn't allow you to look at more than one model in the same file. The global parameters thing is a really cool feature, but I haven't had the chance & time to really use it--besides the inputs are based on if-then type programming, and like I said earlier-programming languages really make my head spin. I can never get the programming right in the global parameters when I try it. Some people are really good with it and use this input approach all the time. For the comparison reports, when using the parametric runs option eQuest has programmed in some great reports and graphs that show the annual & monthly energy savings for your ECMs. If this is what you want from eQuest, then use the parametric runs option.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class="gmail_quote">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#ffffff"><font color="#009900">Not sure, haven't tried that feature yet. I have lately been taking my data to a spread sheet to compare various models. Each model in my branches represents a different concept or trial. This will be my next ordeal by fire. Basically you just have to work with the program and experiment. It is a great tool! Lots of back-ups so you don't have to back track too far when things crash.--<font color="#cc33cc">I do this too like Bruce, I keep file copies for all the "milestones" I reach in my model, or all the trials I'm doing--this is especially helpful when you have complex HVAC system inputs and then the program crashes and you can't remember which step in your inputs made it crash--with no solution. So in this case I can back-track a few steps, instead of loosing the whole project because the file became corrupt or unfixable from crash errors. </font><br>
Bruce Easterbrook P.Eng.<br>Abode Engineering </font><br>
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<div class="h5">
<div>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: red"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I haven’t fully grasped yet the potential/limitations of the parametric reports feature, but for comparing different systems and such I generally create two different files (preserving the effort put into the geometries by saving a copy and going backwards in the second file).</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <font color="#cc33cc">In support of Nick's approach--I use the parametric runs for my basic ECM's (i.e. daylighting-no daylighting, increased insulation, improved glazing, etc.) For more complex ECM's like simulating complex HVAC systems including (geothermal, radiant cooling, etc.), I do the "save as" thing like Nick and create a new file. For situations like this the HVAC system is so complex (in terms of eQuest capabilities) the baseline plant equipment is always way different then the plant equipment I need to input for the proposed high-tech HVAC system. In every case though, I assume we all do it by trial-and-error, every time we do a model...</font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hope this helps,</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">~Nick</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><img alt="cid:489575314@22072009-0ABB" width="119" height="37"><b><span style="COLOR: rgb(45,77,94)"></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="COLOR: rgb(45,77,94)"> </span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="COLOR: rgb(45,77,94)">NICK CATON, E.I.T.</span></b><b><span style="COLOR: rgb(45,77,94); FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: rgb(204,153,0); FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt">PROJECT ENGINEER</span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; COLOR: rgb(204,153,0); FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: rgb(45,77,94); FONT-SIZE: 10pt">25501 west valley parkway</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: rgb(45,77,94); FONT-SIZE: 10pt">olathe ks 66061</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: rgb(45,77,94); FONT-SIZE: 10pt">fax 913 345.0617</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="COLOR: rgb(45,77,94); FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Check out our new web-site @ </span></i><span style="COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><a title="blocked::www.smithboucher.com" href="http://www.smithboucher.com/" target="_blank"><span style="COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">www.smithboucher.com</span></a></span><u><span style="COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </span></u></p>
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<p>-----Original Message-----<br>From: <a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] On Behalf Of Nicholas Couture, LEED AP<br>
Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 2:40 PM<br>To: <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>Subject: [Equest-users] eQuest Project Methodology</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Good Afternoon eQuest users,</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I have a general question that I am wondering what is the method that</p>
<p>people are using to model with eQuest. For example I have done a couple</p>
<p>projects in it (always with a backup in HAP), and I only use the</p>
<p>schematic wizard or DD wizard for monthly energy estimates, because I do</p>
<p>not understand the detailed inputs and how it works, but I would like</p>
<p>to. Are most people using these wizards and then get into the detailed</p>
<p>modeling or do you go straight into detailed parametric modeling? Can</p>
<p>you and do you get into detail modeling of the building with all spaces</p>
<p>and zones, or do you generalize the building zones as the tutorial</p>
<p>recommends, and is it worthwhile to import autoCAD files to help model</p>
<p>the building? Can you compare several different building models in the</p>
<p>same file and show comparison reports? I have found that the EEM wizard</p>
<p>is limited to modifying one system. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Any responses on all facets of the program are welcome. </p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Nick Couture, LEED AP</p>
<p>Jr. Mechanical Engineer </p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>3555 Veteran's Memorial Highway, Suite M</p>
<p>Ronkonkoma, NY 11779</p>
<p>Tel: 631.981.3990 ext. 230</p>
<p>Fax: 631.981.3971</p>
<p><a href="mailto:ncouture@emtec-engineers.com" target="_blank">ncouture@emtec-engineers.com</a></p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p><a href="http://www.emtec-engineers.com/" target="_blank">www.emtec-engineers.com</a> </p>
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