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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=770180019-10122008><FONT face=Arial
size=2>As stated Appendix G, 2007 requires one VAV air handler per floor for
baseline systems 5, 6, 7, and 8. In addition to the differences in baseline fan
power, the number and layout of the air handlers can have a significant impact
on the reset of supply air temperature which is also a baseline requirement in
Appendix G. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=770180019-10122008><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=770180019-10122008><FONT face=Arial
size=2>Mike</FONT></SPAN></DIV><!-- Converted from text/rtf format -->
<P><B><FONT face=Verdana color=#d47500>__________________________</FONT></B>
</P>
<P><B><FONT face=Verdana>Michael Rosenberg</FONT></B> <BR><FONT face=Verdana
size=2>Senior Commercial Buildings Energy Analyst</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Verdana
size=2>ENERGY & ENVIRONMENT DIRECTORATE </FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Verdana size=2>Pacific Northwest National Laboratory
</FONT><BR><FONT face=Verdana size=2>2032 Todd Street </FONT><BR><FONT
face=Verdana size=2>Eugene, OR 97405 </FONT><BR><FONT face=Verdana size=2>(541)
844-1960 </FONT><BR><FONT face=Verdana size=2>michael.rosenberg@pnl.gov
</FONT><BR><FONT face=Verdana color=#d47500 size=2>www.pnl.gov</FONT> </P>
<DIV> </DIV><BR>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>George
Hu<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, December 10, 2008 10:20 AM<BR><B>To:</B> 'Bill
Talbert'; 'James Hansen'; equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<BR><B>Subject:</B>
Re: [Equest-users] FW: Number of systems required by 90.1?<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">It
seems odd to me that 90.1-2007 requires the baseline building to have one system
per floor (system types 5, 6, 7 & 8).<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">These
are all VAV systems, where you have individual VAV boxes responding to different
thermal zones. Why would different<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">number
of AHU’s in this case make a difference in heating and cooling energy
consumption?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">In
terms of fan energy, however, different number of AHU’s may make a difference.
This is because 90.1 regulates<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">the
fan brake horsepower, which is depending on the size of the fan (Table G3.1.2.9,
<20,000 cfm or >20,000 cfm).<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">For
the same sized building, assuming the total supply airflow being roughly
the same independent of the number of <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">AHU’s
used, each individual fan’s brake house power would be different depending on
its fan size, this may lead to <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">different
total fan energy consumption when you add all individual fan energy up. For this
reason, I would argue, it makes<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">more
sense to keep the same number of AHU’s in the baseline case as in the proposed
design, for you would then be comparing<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">“apple
to apple”, because the fan sizes in the proposed design would be “comparable” to
those in the baseline case.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #17365d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">George
Hu, PE, LEED AP<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #17365d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">President<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #17365d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">AWE |
Air Water Energy Engineers, Inc.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #17365d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">781.652.8688<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #17365d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">www.awe-e.com<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">
equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Bill
Talbert<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, December 10, 2008 1:01 PM<BR><B>To:</B> James
Hansen; equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Equest-users]
FW: Number of systems required by 90.1?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">James,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">90.1-2004 addendum u
includes the 'one system per floor' wording for systems 5 thru 8, but
floors can be grouped when the thermal blocks are similar. For LEED, it is
optional to use addenda. 90.1-2007 adopts the same
wording.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">Regards,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">Bill
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Technic">Bill Talbert, PE, </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; LAYOUT-GRID-MODE: line; FONT-FAMILY: Technic">LEED®
AP</SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Technic"><BR>Mechanical
Systems</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Technic">Phone: (608) 441-6677<BR>E-mail:
btalbert@aeieng.com<BR><BR>Affiliated Engineers Inc.<BR>5802 Research Park
Blvd.<BR>Madison, WI. 53719<BR>Tel. (608) 238-2616<BR>Fax. (608)
238-2614</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><BR>>>>
"James Hansen" <JHANSEN@ghtltd.com> 12/10/2008 11:45 AM
>>><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">Thanks for your
response Richard.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">Can anyone confirm
whether ASHRAE 90.1-2007 specifically says that your Baseline model MUST have a
system per floor?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">I can’t seem to find
it in 2004, or the user’s manual, or in the LEED-NC reference guide.</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: #1f497d"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="COLOR: teal; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">GHT
Limited<BR></SPAN></B><B><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">James Hansen</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black">, PE, LEED AP<o:p></o:p></SPAN></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Senior
Associate</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">1010
N. Glebe Rd, Suite 200</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Arlington,
VA 22201-4749</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">703-338-5754
(Cell)</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">703-243-1200
(Office)</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">703-276-1376
(Fax)</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: teal; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><A
href="http://www.ghtltd.com/"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">www.ghtltd.com</SPAN></A><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> Richard Ellison
[mailto:REllison@southlandind.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, December 10, 2008
11:53 AM<BR><B>To:</B> James Hansen<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: [Equest-users] Number
of systems required by 90.1?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">I interpret ASHRAE to suggest
one should use 5 AHUs for just the reason you mentioned. They are
different because of different exposures. One has slab and one has
roof. The external load would be different as would the return plenum
temperatures. One might be able to group floors 2-5 energy wise but I
recall reading, perhaps in 2007 where they specifically meant on per floor for
the baseline. I always have at least one AHU per floor in my baseline
models. Using only one AHU would be cheating a bit. This would be
the same logic that says one must zone rooms with different occupancies or
schedules separately.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">RICHARD
ELLISON</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: #e36c0a"> <BR></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Energy
Engineer</SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #e36c0a">
</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Southland
Industries</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">22340
Dresden Street, Suite 177</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Dulles,
VA 20166</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Office:
703.834.5570</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Direct:
703. 834.2438</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Fax:
703.834.5572</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">
equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>James
Hansen<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, December 10, 2008 11:40 AM<BR><B>To:</B>
equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> [Equest-users] Number of
systems required by 90.1?</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>I’m working on a model of a 5-story building – my Proposed
system is floor-by-floor chilled water AHUs connected to a water-cooled chiller
central plan. Airside is shutoff VAV boxes with hot water
reheat.<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>For the size of the building, the baseline model is almost
identical. It is System 7 – Packaged rooftop VAV system with reheat boxes,
chilled water, hot water boilers.<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>My question is whether or not the Baseline model has to have
a single system for the building, or should it have 5 separate RTUs (doesn’t
really make any sense) since my proposed building has 5 systems?<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>I’m pretty sure the answer is that the Baseline should just
have one packaged RTU for the building, but it actually makes a big difference
on energy use. By breaking the systems down into one-per-floor, as is the
case with the proposed model, I end up saving a LOT of energy, possibly because
the 1<SUP>st</SUP> floor is slab-on-grade, and the 5<SUP>th</SUP> floor has a
roof. <o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>Just wanted to make sure I have the correct number of
“systems” for the Baseline model.<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>Thanks!<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
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