[Equest-users] BDL Errors on a Six Story Building

Tue Jun 16 13:52:55 PDT 2020

Well summarized Morteza – thanks for sharing with me and the community!

(this may well save someone else in a similar situation)

I can only really speculate alongside you at this juncture, but “maximum number of expression dependency” does make it sound as though you crossed some limit of complexity between your 4th and 6th wizard shell/zone.  I have the impression such limits can occasionally be helpfully shifted by toggling off compliance rulesets, which can substantially reduce the lines defining a wizard-generated model.  There may well be a unique bug here specific to doe2.3 and/or your model’s selected wizard inputs.

In any case, we can only carry the ball so far – I think you’ve done a great job in documenting the matter so that developers may have a chance of rooting out the issue!

~Nick

[cid:image001.jpg at 01D643F6.2F3C11D0]
Nick Caton, P.E., BEMP
  Senior Energy Engineer
  Energy and Sustainability Services
  Energy Performance Contracting
D
M
E

913 . 564 . 6361
785 . 410 . 3317
nicholas.caton at se.com<mailto:nicholas.caton at se.com>
15200 Santa Fe Trail Drive
Suite 204
Lenexa, KS 66219

[cid:image002.png at 01D643F6.2F3C11D0]

From: Equest-users <equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org> On Behalf Of Morteza Kasmai via Equest-users
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2020 8:21 AM
To: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] BDL Errors on a Six Story Building

[External email: Use caution with links and attachments]

________________________________

Hi Nick,

Thank you for providing your thoughts and suggestions on this issue.
Unfortunately toggling off the daylighting options didn’t work. Even after removing daylighting options from all of the floors the message did not disappear.
In another attempt to resolve the BDL Errors that was the main issue with this model, Shaun Martin ran the project in DOE-2.2, made some changes and the errors were gone. But the corrected model in DOE-2.2 had another issue - too many unmet hours. The model simulates without any error but now there are more than 3,000 heating throttling hours below the range, which are distributed through all of the systems. I could not resolve the unmet hours by increasing the minimum flow ratio or air flow of the zones within the wizard mode.
Shaun kindly suggested several steps for resolving the unmet hours issue in the DDE mode; however, I wanted to resolve some of the issues affecting the unmet hours within the wizard mode.
Comparing the simulation results of this model from DOE-2.2 and 2.3 is very interesting. Simulation results of the Five Story Building model (DOE-2.3) that was attached in my first email showed no unmet hours. The corrected Six Story Building (DOE-2.2) had too many unmet hours distributed through all of the thermal zones; even the zones that had no unmet heating have unmet hours now. And when comparing SV-A reports of identical VAV systems from 2.3 and 2.2 there are huge differences between calculated capacities and air flows.
Since I wanted to complete the model with DOE-2.3, tried to resolve the encountered errors related to exceeding eQUEST expressions by combining some of the similar thermal zones in the fifth & sixth floors. Surprisingly there were no errors at this time and I could run the model and get the simulation results with just 9 hours below the heating range!
In another attempt I noticed if I assume that the fifth floor and sixth floor are identical and use floor multipliers there won’t be any errors. However, if I do not use the floor multiplier I will encounter 4,916 errors.
It seems in any cases when the maximum number of expression dependency lists exceeds the limit as shown in the screenshot below, I will get BDL errors.
[image.png]
I’m wondering if this is the case for all models using DOE-2.3.
Thank you for your time.
Morteza,

Morteza Kasmaei
Senior Architect
LEED AP BD+C, GGP

On Fri, Jun 12, 2020 at 11:22 PM <equest-users-request at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:equest-users-request at lists.onebuilding.org>> wrote:
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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: BDL Errors on a Six Story Building (Nicholas Caton)
   2. Re: Solar Thermal Energy Assisted Cooling (Nicholas Caton)
   3. Re: Solar Thermal Energy Assisted Cooling (Damon Lapping)

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Nicholas Caton <Nicholas.Caton at se.com<mailto:Nicholas.Caton at se.com>>
To: Morteza Kasmai <morteza.kasmai at gmail.com<mailto:morteza.kasmai at gmail.com>>
Cc: "equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org>" <equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org>>
Bcc:
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 16:23:00 +0000
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] BDL Errors on a Six Story Building
It sounds as though the wizards are struggling to apply/define inputs necessary for daylighting control, specifically for one or more zones which do not feature windows.

To explore the matter, I might suggest toggling off the daylighting options for your 5th shell and see if that gets rid of the initial error and permits you to define your 6th shell without issue.  If that works, then you have isolated the matter and can explore some things like re-definining your custom window layout and combing through / iteratively enabling daylighting within that shell.

Let us know if that helps

~Nick

[cid:image004.jpg at 01D643F6.2F3C11D0]
Nick Caton, P.E., BEMP
  Senior Energy Engineer
  Energy and Sustainability Services
  Energy Performance Contracting
D
M
E

913 . 564 . 6361
785 . 410 . 3317
nicholas.caton at se.com<mailto:nicholas.caton at se.com>
15200 Santa Fe Trail Drive
Suite 204
Lenexa, KS 66219
[cid:image002.png at 01D643F6.2F3C11D0]

From: Equest-users <equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>> On Behalf Of Morteza Kasmai via Equest-users
Sent: Friday, June 5, 2020 7:41 AM
To: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org>
Subject: [Equest-users] BDL Errors on a Six Story Building

[External email: Use caution with links and attachments]

________________________________

Dear eQUEST experts,
I’m using eQUEST 3-65 7175 DOE 2.3 to model a six story 260,000 GSF building. Up to level 05 the only issue that I have when leaving the Wizard is the following message. However the simulation works without any problem and provides the results.

[image.png]
When I add the sixth floor as a separate shell and leave the Wizard encounter 8,685 BDL Errors, which relates to exceeding eQUEST expressions.

Inp and Pd2 files of both of the models are attached.
I would appreciate your guidance on resolving this issue.

Thanks,
Morteza

Morteza Kasmaei
Senior Architect
LEED AP BD+C, GGP

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---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Nicholas Caton <Nicholas.Caton at se.com<mailto:Nicholas.Caton at se.com>>
To: Damon Lapping <damon at greenlogik.co.za<mailto:damon at greenlogik.co.za>>
Cc: "equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org>" <equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org>>
Bcc:
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 16:41:11 +0000
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Solar Thermal Energy Assisted Cooling
Hi Damon,

So… a solar-powered refrigerant compressor?

I suppose you could model a small PV array to generate an appropriate kW output profile within eQuest, then just dump that into the building meter with a normal DX-system.  You’ll want that airside system to have some deliberately-assigned availability scheduling so that it cannot actively cool when there is insufficient daylight… but otherwise I think you’d define that system normally.  The biggest potential hurdle with that approach might be extrapolating the actual efficiency/performance of the equipment (sans solar contributions) from the manufacturer.

I might sooner use a 3rd party software, purpose built for estimating PV system performance, over eQuest though... eQuest is capable but frankly a bit unwieldy for average joes like me, lacking specialized and deep knowledge of PV technology.  I would avoid it through post-processing if possible, but if you do go a 3rd party PV analysis route and you MUST get that generation into your eQuest model, you can use the library entries for a PV generator alongside an electric sale meter to “back in” a generation profile aligning with your outside analysis.

I hope this is helpful!

~Nick

[cid:image001.jpg at 01D640AE.5CC01E30]
Nick Caton, P.E., BEMP
  Senior Energy Engineer
  Energy and Sustainability Services
  Energy Performance Contracting
D
M
E

913 . 564 . 6361
785 . 410 . 3317
nicholas.caton at se.com<mailto:nicholas.caton at se.com>
15200 Santa Fe Trail Drive
Suite 204
Lenexa, KS 66219
[cid:image002.png at 01D643F6.2F3C11D0]

From: Equest-users <equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>> On Behalf Of Damon Lapping via Equest-users
Sent: Friday, June 5, 2020 5:47 AM
To: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org>
Subject: [Equest-users] Solar Thermal Energy Assisted Cooling

[External email: Use caution with links and attachments]

________________________________

Good Day,

Does anyone have experience in modelling solar thermal energy assisted cooling for HVAC? These systems use thermal energy collected from the solar collector and is converted into mechanical work, which is used then used to compress the working fluid in a vapor compression cycle directly. So the HVAC system achieves the required setpoint temperature with less energy required from the compressor than previously required.

I have heard on some online platform that it can be done in equest but can't seem to find that link anymore.

Can anyone help a brother out? :-)

Thanks

Regards

Damon

Regards

DAMON LAPPING, CEM®
Managing Consultant
damon at greenlogik.co.za<mailto:damon at greenlogik.co.za>
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Damon Lapping <damon at greenlogik.co.za<mailto:damon at greenlogik.co.za>>
To: "'Nicholas Caton'" <Nicholas.Caton at se.com<mailto:Nicholas.Caton at se.com>>
Cc: <equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org>>
Bcc:
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 19:17:01 +0200
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Solar Thermal Energy Assisted Cooling
Hi Nick,

Not solar powered but rather using thermal energy to assist the compressor in the vapour compression cycle.

Regards

DAMON LAPPING, CEM®, CRM®
Managing Consultant
damon at greenlogik.co.za<mailto:damon at greenlogik.co.za>
www.greenlogik.co.za<https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.greenlogik.co.za%2Fabout.html&data=02%7C01%7CNicholas.Caton%40se.com%7C69baade6035e4378287108d811f84fc1%7C6e51e1adc54b4b39b5980ffe9ae68fef%7C0%7C0%7C637279105475115092&sdata=t8DhDuQV43sh%2FQ7FL%2F9AO377fo1IwTASXgYV8aHxC%2Bo%3D&reserved=0>
T.    +27 (0) 87 470 0650    F.   +27 (0) 86 763 1323
C.   +27 82 339 3865
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UNIDO Certified Energy Management Professional
AEE CEM (Association of Energy Engineers Certified Energy Manager)
SA Green Building Council Existing Building Performance Accredited
Professional

From: Nicholas Caton <Nicholas.Caton at se.com<mailto:Nicholas.Caton at se.com>>
Sent: Friday, 12 June 2020 6:41 PM
To: Damon Lapping <damon at greenlogik.co.za<mailto:damon at greenlogik.co.za>>
Cc: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org>
Subject: RE: [Equest-users] Solar Thermal Energy Assisted Cooling

Hi Damon,

So… a solar-powered refrigerant compressor?

I suppose you could model a small PV array to generate an appropriate kW output profile within eQuest, then just dump that into the building meter with a normal DX-system.  You’ll want that airside system to have some deliberately-assigned availability scheduling so that it cannot actively cool when there is insufficient daylight… but otherwise I think you’d define that system normally.  The biggest potential hurdle with that approach might be extrapolating the actual efficiency/performance of the equipment (sans solar contributions) from the manufacturer.

I might sooner use a 3rd party software, purpose built for estimating PV system performance, over eQuest though... eQuest is capable but frankly a bit unwieldy for average joes like me, lacking specialized and deep knowledge of PV technology.  I would avoid it through post-processing if possible, but if you do go a 3rd party PV analysis route and you MUST get that generation into your eQuest model, you can use the library entries for a PV generator alongside an electric sale meter to “back in” a generation profile aligning with your outside analysis.

I hope this is helpful!

~Nick

[cid:image004.jpg at 01D643F6.2F3C11D0]
Nick Caton, P.E., BEMP
  Senior Energy Engineer
  Energy and Sustainability Services
  Energy Performance Contracting
D
M
E

913 . 564 . 6361
785 . 410 . 3317
nicholas.caton at se.com<mailto:nicholas.caton at se.com>
15200 Santa Fe Trail Drive
Suite 204
Lenexa, KS 66219
[cid:image004.png at 01D640EE.0C6E2EF0]

From: Equest-users <equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>> On Behalf Of Damon Lapping via Equest-users
Sent: Friday, June 5, 2020 5:47 AM
To: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org>
Subject: [Equest-users] Solar Thermal Energy Assisted Cooling

[External email: Use caution with links and attachments]

________________________________

Good Day,

Does anyone have experience in modelling solar thermal energy assisted cooling for HVAC? These systems use thermal energy collected from the solar collector and is converted into mechanical work, which is used then used to compress the working fluid in a vapor compression cycle directly. So the HVAC system achieves the required setpoint temperature with less energy required from the compressor than previously required.

I have heard on some online platform that it can be done in equest but can't seem to find that link anymore.

Can anyone help a brother out? :-)

Thanks

Regards

Damon

Regards

DAMON LAPPING, CEM®
Managing Consultant
damon at greenlogik.co.za<mailto:damon at greenlogik.co.za>
www.greenlogik.co.za<https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.greenlogik.co.za%2Fabout.html&data=02%7C01%7CNicholas.Caton%40se.com%7C69baade6035e4378287108d811f84fc1%7C6e51e1adc54b4b39b5980ffe9ae68fef%7C0%7C0%7C637279105475125085&sdata=87JySQTciEI18%2BtKueKmmWUX0EVrrJI3dP5vsSLr8hs%3D&reserved=0>
T.    +27 (0) 87 470 0650    F.   +27 (0) 86 763 1323
C.   +27 82 339 3865
[cid:image006.jpg at 01D643F6.2F3C11D0]
UNIDO Certified Energy Management Professional
AEE CEM (Association of Energy Engineers Certified Energy Manager)
SA Green Building Council Existing Building Performance Accredited
Professional

________________________________
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