[Equest-users] FW: Basement slightly below grade
Nicholas Caton
Nicholas.Caton at se.com
Wed Oct 30 07:30:56 PDT 2019
Hi Charlie – CC’ing this conversation into the list for the possibility it may help out others in a similar spot ;-).
I don’t think anything precludes the option of PTAC airside systems supplemented with HW baseboards. That’s pretty typical of multifamily I’ve modeled in the past.
One thing to be mindful of is that you can’t do PTAC just yet in doe 2.3… that isn’t yet implemented so you’ll need to use DOE-2.2 if that’s your desire.
That said, you could also use packaged single zone systems (PSZ) without heating, and the only major difference in application from PTAC is that PSZ isn’t a zonal system type (so you’ll need to define one system per zone rather than just dumping all zones with PTAC’s under one system). Not as time efficient, but the advantate/draw for DOE-2.3 for most multifamily scenarios I’ve dealt with would be the added flexibility in handling various DOA schemes for handling mechanical ventilation.
I’d advise exploring the ventilation strategy first and letting that guide which direction/engine to build your model in.
Leveraging the wizards, it’s pretty easy to generate a ‘dummy’ model to explore your gameplan/strategy for post-wizard detailed edits before you really commit one way or the other.
I hope that’s helpful!
~Nick
[cid:image005.png at 01D515A3.47EDD880]
Nick Caton, P.E., BEMP
Senior Energy Engineer
Schneider Electric of North America
Energy and Sustainability Services
Energy Performance Contracting
D
M
F
E
913 . 564 . 6361
785 . 410 . 3317
913 . 564 . 6380
nicholas.caton at se.com<mailto:nicholas.caton at se.com>
15200 Santa Fe Trail Drive
Suite 204
Lenexa, KS 66219
United States
[cid:image006.png at 01D515A3.47EDD880]
From: Charlie Volpe <cvolpe at ettingerengineering.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2019 10:04 AM
To: Nicholas Caton <Nicholas.Caton at se.com>
Subject: Re: FW: [Equest-users] Basement slightly below grade
Thanks Nick,
Thanks for the links on friday.
I am having a little issue modeling a mid rise residential building.
The building will be using hot water baseboards and through-the- wall air conditioners.
I have taken into account for the air conditioner wall penetrations in the building envelope.
I wanted to know what is the best approach to modeling the system?
Any pointers on adjusting the ptac values?
Most mention using PTACs.
Would it be more appropriate to model 2 HVAC systems , a cooling only DX coil and baseboard heating loop?
Do you have a sample?
Thank You
On Fri, Oct 25, 2019 at 11:51 AM Nicholas Caton <Nicholas.Caton at se.com<mailto:Nicholas.Caton at se.com>> wrote:
[cid:image005.png at 01D515A3.47EDD880]
Nick Caton, P.E., BEMP
Senior Energy Engineer
Schneider Electric of North America
Energy and Sustainability Services
Energy Performance Contracting
D
M
F
E
913 . 564 . 6361
785 . 410 . 3317
913 . 564 . 6380
nicholas.caton at se.com<mailto:nicholas.caton at se.com>
15200 Santa Fe Trail Drive
Suite 204
Lenexa, KS 66219
United States
[cid:image006.png at 01D515A3.47EDD880]
From: Philip Boutelle <philboutelle at gmail.com<mailto:philboutelle at gmail.com>>
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2017 9:16 AM
To: Nicholas Caton <Nicholas.Caton at schneider-electric.com<mailto:Nicholas.Caton at schneider-electric.com>>
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Basement slightly below grade
I was secretly hoping to get a Nick Caton explanation, complete with pictures and steps. :)
You should consider compiling your responses to this list into a help site that people can reference, it would be of huge value (as it has been to me)
Thanks again for the guidance,
-Phil
On Wed, Jan 25, 2017 at 2:42 PM, Nicholas Caton via Equest-users <equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org>> wrote:
Earlier answers answer to the most time-efficient approximations/methods.
But… Semi-exposed basements are the perfect opportunity to learn how to do some detailed geometry manipulations through the eQUEST interface!
This involves a few more steps for no appreciable gains in simulation accuracy, but from a learning/training perspective this will get you more comfy with detailed edits (which will get you out of some tight spots in more complex scenarios, and also put you in a good spot to tackle more complex challenges). That it will “look” right is just icing on the cake ;):
0. Starting point (this is easier to demonstrate when you don’t have plenums specified for below-grade spaces). I’m going to make the highlighted surface our “fully exposed” basement wall:
[cid:image005.png at 01D58F03.BA77E0B0]
1. Select the fully exposed wall, and delete it via right clicking in the component tree:
[cid:image006.png at 01D58F03.BA77E0B0]
2. Right-click the associated parent space in the component tree > Create Child Component . Create child Exterior Wall…
[cid:image007.png at 01D58F03.BA77E0B0]
3. (continuing) – Choose to copy another exterior wall, and give it a recognizable name if you like
[cid:image008.png at 01D58F03.BA77E0B0]
4. Based on whatever you copied, you might need to toggle the vertex (i.e. “V1 vs. V2 vs. etc… of space polygon”) and/or re-initialize / refresh the 3D view, but on choosing the correct vertex you should see the surface appear in the 3D view:
[cid:image009.png at 01D58F03.BA77E0B0]
5. Now select one of the “sloping exposures,” and double click it in the component tree to review its inputs:
[cid:image010.png at 01D58F03.BA77E0B0]
[cid:image011.png at 01D58F03.BA77E0B0]
6. Note the height/width dimensions (12.00 and 91.30 in this case). We’re going to make a polygon with that info.
7. Scroll down to polygons in the component tree, right-click, create polygon.
8. Give it a name & create from scratch:
[cid:image012.png at 01D58F03.BA77E0B0]
9. Polygons require a minimum of three vertices to start… handy that our example is a triangle, eh?
[cid:image013.png at 01D58F03.BA77E0B0]
10. A few tips here:
a. This is EXACTLY like what you’re used to seeing in the wizards for tracing out CAD zones.
b. Specifying vertices in a counter-clockwise fashion is still a good idea
c. Imagine an X-Y plane with the origin at one of the associated SPACE floor vertices – from there you can figure out which direction to go first.
11. Return to the underground surface at-hand, and assign the polygon you just made:
[cid:image014.png at 01D58F03.BA77E0B0]
12. Now, just like the fully exposed wall, create a new exterior surface under this space. Copy the custom exterior wall you made for that case.
[cid:image015.png at 01D58F03.BA77E0B0]
13. If you highlight it in the 3D view, you can see it also needs to be turned into a triangle. It’s exactly the same process. We could save a minute and round an aesthetic corner by assigning the same custom polygon you made for the underground exposure, but that’s not what tutorials are for! Note for this second polygon, I’m plotting points relative to the same space vertex as the origin (this keeps everything on the same plane):
[cid:image016.png at 01D58F03.BA77E0B0]
14. Assign the new polygon to our new exterior surface and voila! Rinse and repeat for the opposite side and you’ll have exactly the scenario you posed represented in your model..
[cid:image017.png at 01D58F03.BA77E0B0]
15. In the interest of at least addressing absolute accuracy, so that we know where it lies, a few extra steps would accurately represent the perimeter floor losses:
a. The basement level space hosting the fully exposed wall after this exercise will have more in the way of actual floor perimeter losses than would be spit out from the wizards. Remember, the wizards thought this would be a basement floor 12 ft under grade. If I wanted to lock that down, I’d create a geometrically identical on-grade space in the wizards, using appropriate inputs for the associated constructions and perimeter insulation (as occurring), finish the wizards to generate the INP, then copy the inputs for the resulting underground construction tied to that space’s on-grade floor over to the basement-level floor for my “working” model.
b. Similarly, the perimeter floor losses for the two “semi-exposed” sides will be slightly higher than the wizards’ generated floor constructions will represent. The amount of heat loss on the “fully underground” side is going to be minimal, and losses per lineal foot will approach fully exposed levels as you approach the “fully exposed” corner. Intuitively I don’t think this would be a linear function (someone more practiced in underground 3D heat transfer studies would know – shoutout to Neal Kruis?), but that’s probably a close enough approximation.
c. Losses on the face remaining fully under grade should be correct as generated by the wizards – no work there.
You could go on to specify doors / windows on the exterior surfaces if desired.
Hope that helps a few of you!
~Nick
[cid:image001.png at 01D58F03.BA77E0B0]
Nick Caton, P.E., BEMP
Senior Energy Engineer
Regional Energy Engineering Manager
Energy and Sustainability Services
Schneider Electric
D 913.564.6361<tel:(913)%20564-6361>
M 785.410.3317<tel:(785)%20410-3317>
F 913.564.6380<tel:(913)%20564-6380>
E nicholas.caton at schneider-electric.com<mailto:nicholas.caton at schneider-electric.com>
15200 Santa Fe Trail Drive
Suite 204
Lenexa, KS 66219
United States
[cid:image003.png at 01D58F03.BA77E0B0]
From: Equest-users [mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>] On Behalf Of Keith Swartz via Equest-users
Sent: Monday, January 23, 2017 1:21 PM
To: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org>
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Basement slightly below grade
Phil,
To add a little more detail to splitting the wall in two…
1. Make a copy of the basement wall.
2. Raise the bottom of one of those walls and make sure it has an above-grade construction.
3. Lower the top of the other wall and make sure it has a below-grade construction.
Keith Swartz, PE | Senior Energy Engineer
Seventhwave
608.210.7123<tel:(608)%20210-7123> seventhwave.org<https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fseventhwave.org&data=02%7C01%7CNicholas.Caton%40se.com%7C939955c7f5374339feae08d75c81572f%7C6e51e1adc54b4b39b5980ffe9ae68fef%7C0%7C0%7C637079582901123263&sdata=LusCadHY6uM5jbaSy8O4gKVietWiILh%2FrrwY8Gk%2BYWI%3D&reserved=0>
From: John Aulbach via Equest-users [mailto:equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org]
Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2017 11:55 AM
To: Philip Boutelle via Equest-users <equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org>>
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Basement slightly below grade
Hi Phil:
If you are not as concerned with the 3-D rendering, I would have half the basement above ground, half below. A simple step. Thermodynamically, it should be fine.
John R. Aulbach, PE
On Saturday, January 21, 2017, 8:29:20 AM PST, Philip Boutelle via Equest-users <equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org>> wrote:
Equest users,
I need to model a building that is built partially into a hillside, so that te basement is partially below grade. One wall of the basement is almost completely adjacent to earth, and the hill slopes pretty evenly down towards the opposite side, which is completely exposed. Any tips on how to reflect this in my model?
Thank for any help here,
-Phil
--
Phil Boutelle, PE, CEM | Energy Engineer
philboutelle at gmail.com<mailto:philboutelle at gmail.com> | M (831) 359-5268<tel:(831)%20359-5268>
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Charlie Volpe
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Ettinger Engineering Associates
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