[Equest-users] Hourly space temperature after cooling

Tue Mar 26 15:17:40 PDT 2019

Spoke too soon. The PNNL manual promotes Dual Maximum control for VAV boxes. But it doesn’t apply to the baseline.

Christopher R Jones, P.Eng.
T+ 1 416-644-0252

[cid:image001.png at 01D4E400.3111F3A0]

From: Equest-users [mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Jones, Christopher via Equest-users
Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2019 6:13 PM
To: Nicholas Caton <Nicholas.Caton at se.com>
Cc: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Hourly space temperature after cooling

I agree with Nick’s points. I find adjusting the baseline model minimum heating flows takes time. I have many models where zones need a higher minimum flow than 0.4cfm/sf, 30% in 90.1-2010. I also question the use of REVERSE ACTION thermostats for the baseline VAV box control. I have only come across one building with reverse action VAV boxes.

Christopher R Jones, P.Eng.
T+ 1 416-644-0252

[cid:image002.png at 01D4E400.3111F3A0]

From: Equest-users [mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Nicholas Caton via Equest-users
Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2019 12:46 PM
To: The Energy Simulation Academy <info at simulate.energy<mailto:info at simulate.energy>>; Integral Mechanical Engineering Designs <integralmech at outlook.com<mailto:integralmech at outlook.com>>
Cc: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org>
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Hourly space temperature after cooling

I have a training/teaching topic I’ve delivered around the subject of unmet hours… it includes this definition (my technical understanding):

An unmet hour is reported when a zone’s hourly temperature diverges from the thermostat setpoint/setback temperature by at least the throttling range + 1°F.

Further, because this definition in isolation (and the associated reference manual entries on the topic) can lead other astray without further context, I immediately follow this definition with the following:

A popular misconception is that throttling range is a panacea for resolving unmet hours.

Tweaking throttling range in isolation however is rarely an effective "treatment" for unmet hours in practice.  It does not address any of the most common root causes/resolutions for unmet hours (to my experience):
·         Inadequate capacities:

        *   airflow
        *   heating
        *   cooling
        *   Emphasis for inadequate airflow:  Where a model relies heavily upon auto-sizing, airflow by far the most common capacity issue I’ve encountered when troubleshooting.
·         System / conditioning availability (scheduling / night-cycling / lockouts)
·         Assumptions / errors for the inputs concerning the interior & envelope loads being handled by the systems
·         End-user vs. interface errors in developing/tweaking thermostat schedules within the eQuest interface.
·         Thermostat schedules being automatically assigned from wizards and therefore reporting unmet hours where comfort isn’t truly being measured/maintained in real life (i.e. does anyone really care if a garage gets warm in the summer?).

This isn’t really a “computational” response in hindsight, but I had this material at-hand to easily share.  Hope this helps in any case!

~Nick

From: Equest-users <equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>> On Behalf Of The Energy Simulation Academy via Equest-users
Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2019 10:38 AM
To: Integral Mechanical Engineering Designs <integralmech at outlook.com<mailto:integralmech at outlook.com>>
Cc: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org>
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Hourly space temperature after cooling

Good for you! But now my OCD is triggered.

To repeat the question if anyone is just looking at this email:

Does anyone happen to know the computational definition of an unmet hour for eQUEST? Especially as stated:
i.e DOE2 will mark an Unmet hour if a zone is: Outside the throttling range? How many degrees outside range (.1, 1 etc)? Plus Occupied? Plus Coil capacities are exceeded? Plus Any other conditions?

I guess I can dig for it, but it's likely one of you knows this officially,

Bob
Energy-models.com
Simulate.Energy
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On Tue, Mar 26, 2019 at 10:28 AM Integral Mechanical Engineering Designs via Equest-users <equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org>> wrote:
Hello,

Thank you for all your answers. There have been really helpful, and the problem was that I had 90 °F in the day schedules within the S1 Sys1 (PSZ) Cool SCH (different value as mentioned by Bill). The solution was to correct the value to 75 °F, and now the unmet hours match with the SS-O report.

Kind Regards,

Paul Caicedo

Mechanical Engineering Consultant

IntegralMECH

________________________________
From: Bishop, Bill <bbishop at pathfinder-ea.com<mailto:bbishop at pathfinder-ea.com>>
Sent: March 25, 2019 7:27 AM
To: Integral Mechanical Engineering Designs; David Eldridge
Cc: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org>
Subject: RE: Hourly space temperature after cooling

Hi Paul,

The 75 °F input that you shared below for “Indoor Design Temperature” is the DESIGN-COOL-T which is used for sizing calculations (and is optional when using DOE-2.3). The hourly thermostat setpoint is part of the thermostat schedule so you need to look at the day schedules within the S1 Sys1 (PSZ) Cool Sch.

Regards,

~Bill

William Bishop, PE, BEMP, BEAP, CEM, LEED AP

Senior Energy Engineer

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From: Equest-users <equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>> On Behalf Of Integral Mechanical Engineering Designs via Equest-users
Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2019 2:34 PM
To: David Eldridge <DEldridge at grummanbutkus.com<mailto:DEldridge at grummanbutkus.com>>; equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org>
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Hourly space temperature after cooling

Hi David,

Thanks for the answer. I don´t think that explain the data because the system is working most of the time during the year, and a note in the SS-O report shows that the temperature counts are made only for the hours when the fans are on. The cooling schedule matches with the  occupancy schedule.

[cid:image005.png at 01D4E400.3111F3A0]

The set point is 75 °F and the throttle range is 2 °R.

[cid:image006.png at 01D4E400.3111F3A0]

The BEPS report shows that are 155 unmet hours, but the SS-O report gives a value of at least 2505 (adding from 80-85 and above 85).

Kind Regards,

Paul Caicedo

Mechanical Engineering Consultant

IntegralMECH

From: David Eldridge <DEldridge at grummanbutkus.com<mailto:DEldridge at grummanbutkus.com>>
Sent: March 22, 2019 9:29 AM
To: Integral Mechanical Engineering Designs
Subject: RE: Hourly space temperatura after cooling

That SS-O report should be after cooling (it’s a “system” report), but it may include some hours when the control system is in setback – it’s not only for occupied hours, would that explain your data?

There is a separate module for report variables that you can specify to document any number of internal calculations, including one or more space temperatures – it’s been a while since I set one of those up but if you search this community for “report variables” some instructions should pop up.

These can then also be exported to excel, or printed in the *.sim report.

David

David S. Eldridge, Jr., P.E., LEED AP BD+C, BEMP, BEAP, HBDP

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From: Equest-users [mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Integral Mechanical Engineering Designs via Equest-users
Sent: Friday, March 22, 2019 8:51 AM
To: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org>
Subject: [Equest-users] Hourly space temperatura after cooling

Hi all,

If I open the BEPS Building Energy Performance, there are 155 unmet hours. I would like to get the temperature values throughout the year after cooling, but the only related option that I can see is the SS-O Space Temperature Summary where the temperatures above the set point are much more than the unmet hours. It seems that is the report of the space before cooling.

How could I get the space temperature after cooling to have relation with the unmet hours?

Kind Regards,

Paul Caicedo

Mechanical Engineering Consultant

IntegralMECH
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