[Equest-users] FW: Sea-Water Cooled Chiller Modeling

Tue Aug 15 14:13:21 PDT 2017

I missed CC'ing the list on previous reply. Mia culpa.
Wanted to get this in archive.

Thanks,
DARIC R ADAIR PE, C.E.M.
Mechanical Engineer, Energy Analyst

Henderson Engineers
Tel (913) 742-5530
daric.adair at hendersonengineers.com<mailto:daric.adair at hendersonengineers.com>

Licensed in KS

From: Nicholas Caton [mailto:Nicholas.Caton at schneider-electric.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2017 4:04 PM
To: Daric Adair <Daric.Adair at hendersonengineers.com>; Sefa Şahin <ssahin at mimtarch.com>
Subject: RE: [Equest-users] Sea-Water Cooled Chiller Modeling

The alternative approach I had in mind would be to specify air-cooled remote chillers with remote condensors, then to zero out the remote condenser energies while setting the supplied condenser temperature to a fixed temp (equaling what you expect to see coming off the seawater HX).

I can detail that approach further for you on or off-list, but I think you'll find the extra degree of control offered by the lake/well approach in capturing a variance in condenser supply temperature something you'll want to be able to fall back on down the line (particularly if you might actually anticipate variance in the temps coming off the HX, perhaps more in line with what's happening at the building vs. what's happening with the seawater temps).

Either way, let us know and feel free to respond with the list copied.  I'm sure you aren't the first to dive down this path, and a continued "public" discussion may yield a few more informed participants!

~Nick

[cid:image001.png at 01D315E0.2542AAA0]
Nick Caton, P.E., BEMP
  Senior Energy Engineer
  Regional Energy Engineering Manager
  Energy and Sustainability Services
  Schneider Electric

D  913.564.6361
M  785.410.3317
F  913.564.6380
E  nicholas.caton at schneider-electric.com<mailto:nicholas.caton at schneider-electric.com>

15200 Santa Fe Trail Drive
Suite 204
Lenexa, KS 66219
United States

[cid:image003.png at 01D315E0.2542AAA0]

From: Daric Adair [mailto:Daric.Adair at hendersonengineers.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2017 3:45 PM
To: Sefa Şahin <ssahin at mimtarch.com<mailto:ssahin at mimtarch.com>>; Nicholas Caton <Nicholas.Caton at schneider-electric.com<mailto:Nicholas.Caton at schneider-electric.com>>
Subject: RE: [Equest-users] Sea-Water Cooled Chiller Modeling

Sefa;

I just quick tested both methods, and got the same result in both - but this is a 5 minute model, not real or reliable for actual results.

For results verification, I'd probably check the hourly results for Outside Air Temp vs your scheduled constant sea water temperature schedule. If the OAT is resetting better than the sea-water temperature, then this might be possible...maybe?  Also, the efficiency of the Water Cooled chiller should be better than the air-cooled unit, so the EIR would need to be adjusted as well (and changing performance curves).  If real chiller performance curve data is available this will be better/more reliable than the default eQuest curves.

For others, this is the approach I initially took:
It 'feels' weird probably due to terminology; but this is what you're looking to achieve. Create a Condenser Water Loop, Then create a 'Ground Loop Heat Exchanger' - and in that menu specify it to be of lake/well type. In the settings for the 'Ground Loop Heat Exchanger', a constant temperature schedule can be set. This is exactly what you need.  Help file provides a bit more detail (right click on 'GXH Type:' input).

[cid:image005.jpg at 01D315DD.81ACAF50]
[cid:image007.jpg at 01D315DD.81ACAF50]
[cid:image009.jpg at 01D315DD.81ACAF50]

Other config:
[cid:image013.png at 01D315DD.516E86B0]

Thanks,
DARIC R ADAIR PE, C.E.M.
Mechanical Engineer, Energy Analyst

Henderson Engineers
Tel (913) 742-5530
daric.adair at hendersonengineers.com<mailto:daric.adair at hendersonengineers.com>

Licensed in KS

From: Sefa Şahin via Equest-users [mailto:equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org]
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2017 9:31 AM
To: Nicholas Caton <Nicholas.Caton at schneider-electric.com<mailto:Nicholas.Caton at schneider-electric.com>>
Cc: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org>
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Sea-Water Cooled Chiller Modeling

Hi Nick,
First of all, I can not assigned Lake/Well heat exchanger on CW loop. I can attach Lake/Well heat exchanger on Lake/Well type circulation loop and i can assign Lake/well circulation loop as chiller condenser loop. We assigned design constant sea water temperature with temperature schedule on equest ground loop heat exchanger tab as you can see at the attachment.
For example, i tryied this configuration on a simple model that include air cooled chillers. We thought that when we changed air cooled chiller with sea-water cooled chiller on same simple model, the cooling electrical consumption will be decreased. But the cooling consumption increased. Did we think mistake?

Thank you for kindly helping
Best Regards
Sefa
14.08.2017 20:03 tarihinde Nicholas Caton yazdı:
Hi Sefa,

Did Chris Jones's suggestion from a few months ago to try a Lake/Well heat exchanger on the associated  CW not work out?
That would permit you to "force feed" the temperatures seen by the chillers in a direct fashion via temperature scheduling.  Picture follows for clarity.

Please update your query with what you've tried and what seems to be not working.  I have another suggestion which may offer some relative simplicity from a custom performance curve development standpoint, but intuitively I also would have tried the Lake/Well approach first to see if that gets the job done.

~Nick

[cid:image002.png at 01D315DB.AB3932F0]

[cid:image003.png at 01D315DB.AB3932F0]
Nick Caton, P.E., BEMP
  Senior Energy Engineer
  Regional Energy Engineering Manager
  Energy and Sustainability Services
  Schneider Electric

D  913.564.6361
M  785.410.3317
F  913.564.6380
E  nicholas.caton at schneider-electric.com<mailto:nicholas.caton at schneider-electric.com>

15200 Santa Fe Trail Drive
Suite 204
Lenexa, KS 66219
United States

[cid:image004.png at 01D315DB.AB3932F0]

From: Equest-users [mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Sefa Sahin via Equest-users
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2017 6:36 AM
To: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org>
Subject: [Equest-users] Sea-Water Cooled Chiller Modeling

Our project building is located in Istanbul/Turkey. Cooling will be provided by centralised two chillers. There is not a cooling tower. The project building location is very close the sea and this chillers will be fed by the sea-water condenser system.
There is a titanium plate type heat exchanger between sea-water and chiller condenser water. Sea water condenser flow and return temperatures 22C(71.6F) and 27C(80.6F).
Chiller condenser water flow and return temperatures 29C(84.2F) and 23C(73.4F). In addition, condenser total water flow rate is 340 kg/hr at 250 kPa.
How can sea-water condenser system be modeled in eQuest?
Thank you,
Best Regards

Sefa Sahin, LEED AP BD+C
Mimta EcoYapı
Hekimsuyu Cad. 559. Sk.
No:39 34255 Küçükköy İstanbul Türkiye
Tel: 90-212-617-2296
Fax: 90-212-617-2297

www.eco-yapi.com<http://www.eco-yapi.com/>

www.facebook.com/mimtaecoyapi<http://www.facebook.com/mimtaecoyapi>

www.linkedin.com/company/mimta<http://www.linkedin.com/company/mimta>

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--

Sefa Sahin, LEED AP BD+C
Mimta EcoYapı
Hekimsuyu Cad. 559. Sk.
No:39 34255 Küçükköy İstanbul Türkiye
Tel: 90-212-617-2296
Fax: 90-212-617-2297

www.eco-yapi.com<http://www.eco-yapi.com/>

www.facebook.com/mimtaecoyapi<http://www.facebook.com/mimtaecoyapi>

www.linkedin.com/company/mimta<http://www.linkedin.com/company/mimta>

AT:2|

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