[Equest-users] % LOAD ATTRIBUTED TO OA DELIVERY

[Shaun Martin]

With MIN-AIR-SCH,  you have to zero out all zone exhausts, because exhaust
overrides the schedule.  And, almost every building I work on has
ventilation heat recovery, which affects the mixed air temp.  I'm not quite
sure what will happen at MIN-AIR-SCH =.001.  Be careful with the control
strategy.

 

Shaun Martin LEED-AP, BEMP

Principal

Shaun Martin Consulting

#90 - 425 Carrall Street

Vancouver, BC  V6B 6E3

p. 604-789-1095

 

 

From: Equest-users [mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On
Behalf Of Keith Swartz
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 6:51 AM
To: Porter, Frederick NOR <fporter at noresco.com>; Nathan Miller
<nathanm at rushingco.com>; Daniel Knapp <danielk at arborus.ca>
Cc: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] % LOAD ATTRIBUTED TO OA DELIVERY

 

Here are details from the help screen:

 

 



 

Keith Swartz, PE | Senior Energy Engineer

Seventhwave | Madison.Chicago.Minneapolis

608.210.7123 seventhwave.org

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Porter, Frederick NOR [mailto:fporter at noresco.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 11:46 AM
To: Nathan Miller <nathanm at rushingco.com <mailto:nathanm at rushingco.com> >;
Daniel Knapp <danielk at arborus.ca <mailto:danielk at arborus.ca> >
Cc: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
<mailto:equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org> 
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] % LOAD ATTRIBUTED TO OA DELIVERY

 

All,

Bill describes  how to do this easily in his initial reply. The MIN-AIR-SCH
at the system level over-rides the zone OA inputs (Actually, I'm not
positive what happens if there are zone exhaust fans in the model! I avoid
these like the plague.) MOST AHU models should have a SYSTEM MIN-AIR-SCH
which is either -999  (default, model uses sum of zone OA  flows, or system
MIN-OA if there are no zone OA flows) during occupied periods or 0.0 (no
econ, no damper leakage) or 0.01-0.03 or so (leakage, economizer allowed)
for hours when the system can cycle on during unoccupied periods. Changing
this one system schedule to one with zero or 0.01 at all hours is absolutely
the easiest way to do a run with "no" OA.  It is very easy to do as a
"parametric." 

 

Fred

 

-----Original Message-----

From: Nathan Miller [ <mailto:nathanm at rushingco.com>
mailto:nathanm at rushingco.com]

Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 7:35 AM

To: Daniel Knapp; Porter, Frederick NOR

Cc:  <mailto:equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org>
equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org

Subject: [External] RE: [Equest-users] % LOAD ATTRIBUTED TO OA DELIVERY

 

Depending on your system, you can allow economizer by assigning an
arbirtrary, tiny OA CFM (like 0.01 CFM) to the zone. Then there is
essentially no OA being delivered in normal operation, but economizer can be
engaged. 

 

 

Nathan Miller, PE, LEED AP BD+C - Mechanical Engineer/Senior Energy Analyst
RUSHING | D 206-788-4577 | O 206-285-7100  <http://www.rushingco.com>
www.rushingco.com

 

-----Original Message-----

From: Equest-users [ <mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>
mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Daniel Knapp

Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 9:32 AM

To: Porter, Frederick NOR < <mailto:fporter at noresco.com>
fporter at noresco.com>

Cc:  <mailto:equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org>
equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org

Subject: Re: [Equest-users] % LOAD ATTRIBUTED TO OA DELIVERY

 

There should be a way to run without outdoor air while still allowing
economizer operation. If you set the outdoor air to zero at the zone level,
and allow for an economizer at the system level, I imagine that eQUEST would
do this. It would be worth looking at the hourly reports for the OA fraction
at the system level to confirm that the outdoor air flow rate is behaving as
expected. 

 

All the best,

 

Dan

 

 

-

Daniel Knapp, PhD, PPhys, LEED(r) AP O+M  <mailto:danielk at arborus.ca>
danielk at arborus.ca

 

Arborus Consulting

Energy Strategies for the Built Environment  <http://www.arborus.ca>
www.arborus.ca

76 Chamberlain Avenue

Ottawa, ON, K1S 1V9

Phone: (613) 234-7178 ext. 113

Fax: (613) 234-0740

 

 

 

 

> On Oct 13, 2015, at 7:37 PM, Porter, Frederick NOR <
<mailto:fporter at noresco.com> fporter at noresco.com> wrote:

> 

> Mark,

> I'd stick with Bill's original suggestion. Run the model with "zero" OA
and compare to the "proposed" case. Seem's close enough to me... As Joe
notes, in the end there can be some ambiguity about exactly how the total
hourly coil  load should be apportioned. If you are curious about how the
model works on an hourly basis, generate some hourly AHU reports (coil
loads, MA and SA conditions), from the two runs. Do not just compare L- and
S- loads reports. L- reports are at a constant temp, and in addition to OA,
do not include any "false" loads from overcool/reheat, fan heat... I'm sure
there are more.

>  

> One thing to check first; make sure your coil capacity with the OA is
large enough to fully condition the air at each timestep. Also, for models
that use it, set the "cooling coil/cool control range" to 0.1F or so to
avoid possible small changes in the coil leaving air temps between runs.

>  

> I think Trace and HAP provide a "ventilation load" in reports they
probably do some intermediate calculation each hour for the AHU w/ and w/o
OA. They may even allocate it per zone.

>  

> Food for thought: In buildings without high exhaust flows, some of the "OA
ventilation load," imposed by OA at the AHU, actually offsets some
infiltration load that would occur throughout the building if that OA was
not brought in, or ended up in an ERV somehow. "Simple" simulation programs
attempt to account for this with schedules that are applied to infiltration
based on initial AHU operating schedules, however those infiltration
schedules are not directly linked to OA schedules. I've seen "efficient"
buildings that were not adequately pressurized because the nifty heat
recovery ventilator exhaust fan used up all the air that would otherwise
kept the building pressurized.

>  

> Fred

> Fred Porter, BEMP, LEED(c) AP

> Principal Engineer

> Sustainability Services

> NORESCO

> 2540 Frontier Ave, Suite 100, Boulder, CO  80301 Phone 303.459.7425 | 

> Cell 303.748.4536  |   <mailto:fporter at noresco.com> fporter at noresco.com
<http://www.noresco.com> www.noresco.com

>  

> Confidentiality Note:

> Dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail or the information
herein by anyone other than the intended recipient, or an employee or agent
of a system responsible for delivering the message to the intended
recipient, is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please
inform the sender and delete all copies.

>  

>  

>  

>  

> From: Equest-users [ <mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>
mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org]

> On Behalf Of Joe Huang

> Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 1:58 PM

> To:  <mailto:equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org>
equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org

> Subject: [External] Re: [Equest-users] % LOAD ATTRIBUTED TO OA 

> DELIVERY

>  

> There are so many differences between what's reported in the LS-D and SS-D
that I would not use this method for anything more than an extremely crude
look at the load attributable to OA.  In Loads,  all the heat flows are
calculated at the reference temperature (TLOADS) and counted as Cooling if
the net space load that hour is positive or Heating if it's negative.  In
Systems, these loads are corrected to the actual zone temperature and the
load from OA and interzone heat transfer added, while solving for the zone
temperature. If the zone temperature is outside the thermostat deadband, a
deficit would be considered a heating load and an excess as a cooling  load
on the HVAC system.

> 

> There's a much better way to get the OA load, but it would take some work,
either with a User-Function, which unfortunately is not available in DOE-2.2
(although I've heard that Expressions could do much the same thing...), or
by post-processing hourly outputs.  Print out an Hourly Report with the
following parameters: Outdoor Air Temp (To), Room Air Temperature (Trm),
Outside Air CFM, and the Zone Load.  Then, use Excel or awk ( my favorite
:-) :-) ) to calculate the load due to the OA as (Trm-To)*CFM*Cp of air .
This can then be compared to the Zone Load, but you'll notice some anomalies
such as during the swing season when the OA Load is actually "free cooling".
You'll then have to decide how to attribute the OA heat flows to the HVAC
loads, which can be tricky.  

> 

> Various people, including me, Dan Fisher, Jason Glazer, etc., have 

> wandered into this area of deriving component loads, and have found 

> that it ultimately raises philosophical questions.  :-) :-)

> 

> Joe

> Joe Huang

> White Box Technologies, Inc.

> 346 Rheem Blvd., Suite 205A

> Moraga CA 94556

>  <mailto:yjhuang at whiteboxtechnologies.com>
yjhuang at whiteboxtechnologies.com

>  <http://weather.whiteboxtechnologies.com>
http://weather.whiteboxtechnologies.com for simulation-ready weather 

> data

> (o) (925)388-0265

> (c) (510)928-2683

> "building energy simulations at your fingertips"

> On 10/13/2015 9:02 AM, Keith Swartz wrote:

> Good point, David. The system report adds more than just ventilation load
to the space load.

>  

> Keith Swartz, PE | Senior Energy Engineer Seventhwave | 

> Madison.Chicago.Minneapolis

> 608.210.7123 seventhwave.org

>  

> From: David Eldridge [ <mailto:DEldridge at grummanbutkus.com>
mailto:DEldridge at grummanbutkus.com]

> Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 10:47 AM

> To: Keith Swartz < <mailto:KSwartz at seventhwave.org>
KSwartz at seventhwave.org>;  <mailto:Mark.Hallman at rwdi.com>
Mark.Hallman at rwdi.com

> Subject: RE: [Equest-users] % LOAD ATTRIBUTED TO OA DELIVERY

>  

> I'm not sure if that will exactly give the ventilation loads - the "L"
reports are the building space loads, but the "S" reports will include other
system effects such as fan heat, reheat, heat gain to the return air, so
that the difference might not exactly be a ventilation load, and might be
pretty far from an OA-only load.

>  

> If there is a preheat coil, you can set up a report to trend that coil's
load if you are after the heating loads. You could trend the cooling coil
load as well, but this is a function of economizer operation and outside air
temperature as well.

>  

> David

>  

>  

>


>  

> David S. Eldridge, Jr., P.E., LEED AP BD+C, BEMP, BEAP, HBDP 

> Grumman/Butkus Associates

>


>  

>  

> From: Equest-users [ <mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>
mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org]

> On Behalf Of Keith Swartz

> Sent: Monday, October 12, 2015 8:55 AM

> To:  <mailto:equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org>
equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org

> Subject: Re: [Equest-users] % LOAD ATTRIBUTED TO OA DELIVERY

>  

> Mark,

>  

> Look at the differences between values in reports LS-D and SS-D. SS-D 

> includes ventilation. LS-D does not. (The first letter "S" stands for 

> "system." "L" is for "load," the load in the space.)

>  

> Keith Swartz, PE | Senior Energy Engineer Seventhwave | 

> Madison.Chicago.Minneapolis

> 608.210.7123 seventhwave.org

>  

> From: Shaun Martin [ <mailto:smartin at shaunmartinconsulting.com>
mailto:smartin at shaunmartinconsulting.com]

> Sent: Friday, October 09, 2015 12:13 PM

> To: 'Mark Hallman' < <mailto:Mark.Hallman at rwdi.com>
Mark.Hallman at rwdi.com>; 'Bishop, Bill' 

> < <mailto:bbishop at pathfinder-ea.com> bbishop at pathfinder-ea.com>;
<mailto:equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org>
equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org

> Subject: Re: [Equest-users] % LOAD ATTRIBUTED TO OA DELIVERY

>  

> Hi Mark,

>  

> You can use hourly reports to pull out the outside air volume (variable
PO) plus the supply and return volumes and temperatures. Then off to a
spreadsheet.

>  

> Or, if you're feeling ambitious, you could write an input function (see
Topics).

>  

> Shaun

>  

> Shaun Martin LEED-AP, BEMP

> Principal

> Shaun Martin Consulting

> #90 - 425 Carrall Street

> Vancouver, BC  V6B 6E3

> p. 604-789-1095

>  

>  

>  

>  

> From: Equest-users [ <mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>
mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org]

> On Behalf Of Mark Hallman

> Sent: Wednesday, October 7, 2015 7:59 PM

> To: 'Bishop, Bill' < <mailto:bbishop at pathfinder-ea.com>
bbishop at pathfinder-ea.com>; 

> 'equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org'

> < <mailto:equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org>
equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org>

> Subject: Re: [Equest-users] % LOAD ATTRIBUTED TO OA DELIVERY

>  

> Thanks Bill, nice tip.  Any way of parsing it out without running two
simulations?

>  

> Tx!

> Mark.

>  

> mark hallman

> p.eng. leed ap bd&c

> project engineer

>  

>  <mailto:mdh at rwdi.com> mdh at rwdi.com

> 519 823 1311 x2494

> RWDI:  the science of buildings, structures & the environment.  See what
we do HERE.

>  

> From: Bishop, Bill [ <mailto:bbishop at pathfinder-ea.com>
mailto:bbishop at pathfinder-ea.com]

> Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2015 11:12

> To: Mark Hallman; 'equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org'

> Subject: RE: % LOAD ATTRIBUTED TO OA DELIVERY

>  

> One way would be to create a MIN-AIR-SCH with all hourly values set to 0
(or 0.001 to activate economizer), apply it to all SYSTEMs and use the
difference in the outputs.

>  

> Regards,

> ~Bill

>  

> William Bishop, PE, BEMP, BEAP, CEM, LEED AP | Pathfinder Engineers & 

> Architects LLP Senior Energy Engineer <image001.jpg>  <image002.jpg>

>  

> 134 South Fitzhugh Street                 Rochester, NY 14608

> T: (585) 698-1956                        F: (585) 325-6005

>  <mailto:bbishop at pathfinder-ea.com> bbishop at pathfinder-ea.com
<http://www.pathfinder-ea.com> www.pathfinder-ea.com

> <image003.png>Carbon Fee and Dividend - simple, effective, and
market-based.

>  

>  

> From: Equest-users [ <mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>
mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org]

> On Behalf Of Mark Hallman

> Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2015 10:59 AM

> To: 'equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org' 

> < <mailto:equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org>
equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org>

> Subject: [Equest-users] % LOAD ATTRIBUTED TO OA DELIVERY

>  

> Hi there,

>  

> Is there a way to accurately parse out from the eQUEST output file the
percentage of the cooling and heating load that is attributed to OA
delivery?   Any advice would be appreciated.

>  

> Thanks in advance!

> Mark Hallman.

>  

>  

>  

>  

> mark hallman

> p.eng. leed ap bd&c

> project engineer

>  

>  <mailto:mdh at rwdi.com> mdh at rwdi.com

> 519 823 1311 x2494

> RWDI:  the science of buildings, structures & the environment.  See what
we do HERE.

>  

> 

> 

> 

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