[Equest-users] Indoor fan separation at ARI

Thu Jun 11 07:36:48 PDT 2015

Thanks so much Elizabeth, Now my fan power calculations results comply with
EMIT results, so I will be documenting both.

Best Regards,

*Omar ElRawy, LEED AP BD+C*
LEED Project Manager
EA Sustainable Building Consultants
http://www.ea-buildingconsultants.com

On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 4:15 PM, Elizabeth Gillmor <
elizabeth at energetics-eng.com> wrote:

> Sorry for any confusion, I was just copying/pasting my LEED response for a
> system Type 5. Yes, you would follow G3.1.2.9 with the appropriate numbers
> for system types 3-4.
>
> LEED refers you to the EMIT user guide for these formulas, you can
> reference that:
> http://www.rmi.org/Content/Files/EMITUsersGuide.pdf
>
>
> *Elizabeth Gillmor  PE, LC, LEED AP*
>
> *e n e r g e t i c s  **consulting engineers, llc*
> energetics-eng.com
> c 303.619.0091
>
> On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 6:23 AM, Omar ElRawy <omaroelrawy at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Dear all,
>>              Thanks William Bishop, Elizabeth Gillmor, Yongqingzhao, and Maria
>> Karpman, this is a lot of helpful data.
>>
>>
>> I think *Maria* did brief the whole subject, but I just need to ask few
>> questions that will help in well documenting this point to the LEED
>> reviewer:
>>
>> *1. Where can I find these official formulas so that I can refer to and
>> attach to my reply please? *
>> *2. What is the difference between SEER and SEER2, and HSPF and HSPF2?*
>>
>>
>> *Concerning fan power*, I'am referring to ASHRAE 90.1 2007 section
>> 3.1.2.9* to find the following:*
>>
>> bhp = CFMs x 0.00094 + A       ----- (where I'am considering
>> my auto-sized eQuest CFM for this value)
>>
>> Pfan (Watts) = bhp × 746 / Fan Motor Efficiency    (For systems 3 through
>> 8)
>>
>> So I'am stopping at both equations to find myself confused with
>> *Elizabeth*'s equations (KW/cfm = bhp/0.746*Fan Motor Efficiency, and
>>  bhp=CFM x 0.0013+A)
>>
>> For example, my system is 248 CFM, as per section 3.1.2.9, my
>> calculations will be as follows:
>>
>>
>>    - bhp=248x0.00094+0 = 0.23312
>>    - Pfan = (0.23312x746)/0.825 = 210.79 W
>>    - W/CFM = 210.79/248 = 0.8499 W/CFM
>>
>>
>> *I wonder if Elizabeth is using a different 90.1 version, or I'am just
>> confused at the 3.1.2.9 interpretation?*
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks for consideration,
>>
>> *Omar ElRawy, LEED AP BD+C*
>> LEED Project Manager
>> EA Sustainable Building Consultants
>> http://www.ea-buildingconsultants.com
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 4:10 PM, Maria Karpman <
>> maria.karpman at karpmanconsulting.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Note that 90.1 2013 finally supplied the “official” formulas for
>>> extracting fan power from EER, SEER, COP47, and HSPF ratings. The resulting
>>> EIR is slighting different compared to the eQUEST formulas discussed below
>>> that many of us have been using – for example, the ASHRAE equations account
>>> for system capacity, resulting in varying EIR depending on system size.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> For Baseline HVAC Systems 1,
>>>
>>> 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6, calculate the minimum COP*nfcooling *and
>>>
>>> COP*nfheating *using the equation for the applicable performance
>>>
>>> rating as indicated in Tables 6.8.1-1 through 6.8.1-4.
>>>
>>> Where a full- and part-load efficiency rating is provided in
>>>
>>> Tables 6.8.1-1 through 6.8.1-4, the full-load equation below
>>>
>>> shall be used:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> COP*nfcooling *= 7.84E-8 × EER × *Q *+ 0.338 × EER
>>>
>>> COP*nfcooling *= –0.0076 × SEER2 + 0.3796 × SEER
>>>
>>> COP*nfheating *= 1.48E-7 × COP*47 *× *Q *+ 1.062 × COP*47*
>>>
>>> (applies to heat-pump heating efficiency only)
>>>
>>> COP*nfheating *= –0.0296 × HSPF2 + 0.7134 × HSPF
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> where COP*nfcooling *and COP*nfheating *are the packaged HVAC
>>>
>>> equipment cooling and heating energy efficiency, respectively,
>>>
>>> to be used in the baseline building, which excludes
>>>
>>> supply fan power, and *Q *is the AHRI-rated cooling capacity
>>>
>>> in Btu/h.
>>>
>>> EER, SEER, COP, and HSPF shall be at AHRI test conditions.
>>>
>>> Fan energy shall be modeled separately according to
>>>
>>> Section G3.1.2.10.
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> *Maria Karpman *LEED AP, BEMP, CEM
>>>
>>> ________________
>>>
>>> Karpman Consulting
>>>
>>> www.karpmanconsulting.net
>>>
>>> Phone 860.430.1909
>>>
>>> 41C New London Turnpike
>>>
>>> Glastonbury, CT 06033
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Equest-users [mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org]
>>> *On Behalf Of *Elizabeth Gillmor
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 09, 2015 11:32 AM
>>> *To:* Jones, Christopher
>>>
>>> *Cc:* equest
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Equest-users] Indoor fan separation at ARI
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Chris you are right, the unit labels should have been W/cfm not kW.
>>> Thanks for the catch!
>>>
>>> [image: Inline image 2]
>>>
>>>
>>> *Elizabeth Gillmor  **PE, LC, LEED AP*
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *e n e r g e t i c s  **consulting engineers, llc*
>>>
>>> energetics-eng.com
>>>
>>> c 303.619.0091
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 8:49 AM, Jones, Christopher <
>>> Christopher.r.Jones at wspgroup.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Just checking but 0.365 kW/cfm seems pretty high.  That is 356 W/cfm.
>>> The DOE2.2 default is 0.0006 kW/cfm, 0.6 W/cfm for the PSZ system
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> [image: cid:image003.png at 01D09C46.E75BA0D0]
>>>
>>> *Christopher Jones,* P.Eng.
>>> Senior Engineer
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *WSP Canada Inc.*
>>>
>>> 2300 Yonge Street, Suite 2300
>>>
>>> Toronto, ON M4P 1E4
>>> T +1 416-644-4226
>>>
>>> F +1 416-487-9766
>>>
>>> C +1 416-697-0065
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> www.wspgroup.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Equest-users [mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org]
>>> *On Behalf Of *Elizabeth Gillmor
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 09, 2015 10:09 AM
>>> *To:* Omar ElRawy
>>> *Cc:* equest
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Equest-users] Indoor fan separation at ARI
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I seem to get this comment frequently so I have it all typed out as a
>>> stock LEED comment response.  The advice you received is correct. You can
>>> use the following formulas for fan power and EIR:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> kW/cfm = BHP / 0.746 * Fan Motor Efficiency     (<----from Appendix G)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> BHP = CFM * 0.0013 + Pressure Drop Adjustment
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The baseline EIR is then calculated with fan energy modeled separately,
>>> using the following formula (same as what eQuest uses in Wizard mode):
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> [image: Inline image 1]
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Where ARI Fan Power = fan power at rated ARI conditions (W/Btuh), and
>>> CAP = total cooling capacity (Btuh).  At rated ARI conditions, the supply
>>> fan is rated at 0.365 kW/cfm and 400 cfm/ton, such that:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> [image: Inline image 2]
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> When normalizing the cooling capacity, the formula is:
>>>
>>> [image: Inline image 3]
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> When applied to a baseline EER=9.5, the resulting EIR=0.3051.  The
>>> eQuest wizard will also do this for you correctly, but usually at LEED
>>> submittal time we are all well past the wizard phase, so the formulas above
>>> are handy to have.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Good luck!
>>>
>>> Elizabeth
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *Elizabeth Gillmor  **PE, LC, LEED AP*
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *e n e r g e t i c s  **consulting engineers, llc*
>>>
>>> energetics-eng.com
>>>
>>> c 303.619.0091
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 3:26 AM, Omar ElRawy <omaroelrawy at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> *Dear all,*
>>>
>>> *               I've got the following reply for a psz system in the
>>> baseline case during preliminary LEED design submittal:*
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *"**N*ote that section G3.1.2.1 requires that where efficiency ratings,
>>> such as EER and COP, include fan energy, the descriptor shall be broken
>>> down into its components so that supply fan energy can be modeled
>>> separately. Because the efficiency ratings are calculated at ARI-rated
>>> conditions, the fans should also be broken out at ARI-rated conditions.
>>> Most simulation software programs have the capability to perform this step
>>> automatically. Provide documentation showing that this calculation has been
>>> performed by the software automatically or provide calculations consistent
>>> with the ASHRAE 90.1-2007 User’s Manual showing that the calculation has
>>> been performed at ARI-rated conditions."
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What I did is that I referred to eQuest library, and documented the
>>> following paragraph to the reviewer:
>>>
>>> "COOLING-EIR:
>>> The Electric Input Ratio (EIR), or 1/(Coefficient of Performance), for
>>> the cooling unit at ARI rated conditions..... This EIR is at ARI rated
>>> conditions, i.e., without correction for different temperature or part
>>> load. Note: If you include fan electric energy consumption in your value of
>>> COOLING-EIR, then you should set SUPPLY-KW/FLOW to zero. Otherwise, the
>>> supply fan electrical energy will be double counted........ Imbedding the
>>> fan energy into the COOLING-EIR is valid only if the fan is constant volume
>>> and INDOOR-FAN-MODE = INTERMITTENT; i.e. the fan cycles on/off with the
>>> compressor. If the fan runs continuously during occupied hours, or the fan
>>> is variable volume, then the fan energy cannot be included in the
>>> COOLING-EIR (or HEATING-EIR)."
>>>
>>> And I did set fan kw/cfm to zero, intermittent, and constant volume, but
>>> I've got the SV-A report reporting zero kw power demand, and zero fan (kw)
>>> for the system and its zones.
>>>
>>> *Then I got an advice stating that:*
>>>
>>> "You should do what the reviewer mentions, divide the indoor fan from
>>> the efficiency rating at ARI-rated conditions and model it separately; this
>>> way you will be able to report the appropriate fan power"
>>>
>>> My question is:* where do I separately input the indoor fan power (kw),
>>> and what value should it be?, knowing that this is a baseline case that do
>>> not refer to an actual design.*
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> *Omar ElRawy, LEED AP BD+C*
>>>
>>> LEED Project Manager
>>>
>>> EA Sustainable Building Consultants
>>>
>>> http://www.ea-buildingconsultants.com
>>>
>>>
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