[Equest-users] Question about air-cooled heat pump

Thu Dec 3 19:47:58 PST 2015

Thanks for your detailed description.

I guess, as eQuest users, sometime we may have same thinking. You mentioned changing chiller type to 'HEAT-PUMP' and changing the CHW loop type to '2-pipe', besides, checking Volume2. That was what I did as well after I found the problem. I am now trying to understand Volume 3 to see if I can find some helpful information. I can set chiller type as 'HEAT-PUMP' and '2-pipe' CHW loop type. The main problem is, after the prior 2 steps,  the error will be shown when I try to set the condenser type as 'air cooled'. Besides, if I set the chiller and loop type as described, actually, the error will be shown no matter which condenser type I choose. Please see the pictures below.

You also mentioned FC 2-pipe system in airside. Is that possible that you mean 4-pipe fan coil? Cause I can only find 4-pipe FC under wizard mode. 

Regards,

2013510165753581

Hang Cui 
Junior Engineer

China Construction Engineering Design Grounp Co., Ltd.

Building 15, Sanlihe Road

Beijing, 100000
e-mail: bj_hangcui at sina.com

www.cscecbdi.com

发件人: Nicholas Caton [mailto:ncaton at catonenergy.com] 
发送时间: 2015年12月3日 14:12
收件人: Hang Cui
抄送: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
主题: RE: [Equest-users] Question about air-cooled heat pump

Hello Hang Cui,

>From your choice of words, I think you intended to include the eQuest-users mailing list and so I am CC’ing in response as this may help others.  The files you sent are fine for reviewing the question at-hand, but be aware you may want to attach your weather file as well if you should later need help concerning specific simulation outputs/results.

The system diagram and description below is helpful.  You may have correctly identified a difference in common terminology between our languages.  Rather than simply “Air-cooled heat pump,” which represents a rather broad category of equipment/system configurations, and referencing your illustration, I might more specifically describe your intended system as a “2-pipe fancoil system with air-source heat pumps on heating/cooling water loop.”  This presumes the same loop is used for heating or cooling (but never both simultaneously).  

If that description seems accurate, I would concede that I’m not aware of a 2-pipe configuration system option currently included in the wizards (perhaps someone else in the list can chime in here?), but there is some direct guidance for this system type in the help files.

Referencing your file I would first explore setting your chillers to be of type ‘Heat Pump’ (HEAT-PUMP) and to change your primary CHW loop servicing the terminal fancoils to be of type ‘2-Pipe’ (‘PIPE2’).  

I would then review this article and its children in the DOE-2 help files:   <mk:@MSITStore:C:\Users\Nick\Documents\eQUEST%203-65%20Data\Help\DOE22\DOE-2.chm::/Docs/volume2dictionary.htm> Volume 2: Dictionary >  <mk:@MSITStore:C:\Users\Nick\Documents\eQUEST%203-65%20Data\Help\DOE22\DOE-2.chm::/Docs/hvaccomponents.htm> HVAC Components >  <mk:@MSITStore:C:\Users\Nick\Documents\eQUEST%203-65%20Data\Help\DOE22\DOE-2.chm::/Docs/chiller1.htm> CHILLER  > Air-to-Water Heat-Pump (HEAT-PUMP, AIR-COOLED)

Also consider the DOE-2 help entries concerning 2-pipe loops and airside FC 2-pipe system operations to ensure you do not miss any of the associated inputs required, particularly the loop operation inputs which determine on what conditions the loop will change between heating and cooling operation.  A conversation with your system/controls engineer(s) (if that is not already you) may prove helpful on this point.

I would also advise 2-pipe systems by their nature have potential for “expected unmet hours” when you have zones that require heating and cooling at the same time served by a common loop and for a period when the loop must “switch modes” during swing seasons.  Be mindful of that nature and give consideration to whether it will make sense to remove certain zone thermostats from the simulation (or else evaluate what an acceptable range of coincident unmet hours must be with all conditioned zones reporting).

I confess that while I have related design/specification experience for residential and small commercial cases, I haven’t performed a 2-pipe system energy analysis in recent memory, so I’m probably missing some details – keep your eyes and mind open as you proceed!

~Nick

NICK CATON, P.E.
Owner

Caton Energy Consulting
  306 N Ferrel

  Olathe, KS  66061

  office:  785.410.3317

www.catonenergy.com

From: Hang Cui [mailto:bj_hangcui at sina.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2015 10:35 PM
To: 'Nicholas Caton'
Subject: 答复: [Equest-users] Question about air-cooled heat pump

Thanks for Nick.

I am not sure if this is the right way to send my project to you all. I attach my .inp and .pd2 file in this mail. Please let me know if you can see that. 

According to Nick's description, do you mean that it might have chance to set an air-cooled heat pump by adjusting the inp file of a wizard-generated DX system project? To my knowledge, DX system can be used to simulate a VRV system that the refrigerant will flow between the fan-coil in the room and the primary equipment outdoor. However, what I need is an air-cooled heat pump that the refrigerant will flow only in the primary equipment and the chilled or hot water will flow in the fan-coil for cooling or heating the room. Since I am not sure if my expression is clear (sorry , my pool language skill), I attach two figures for your convenience.

Looking forward your reply.

Regards

i

2013510165753581

Hang Cui 

China Construction Engineering Design Grounp Co., Ltd.

Building 15, Sanlihe Road

Beijing, 100000
e-mail: bj_hangcui at sina.com

www.cscecbdi.com

发件人: Nicholas Caton [mailto:ncaton at catonenergy.com] 
发送时间: 2015年12月3日 8:14
收件人: Jones, Christopher; 崔航; equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
主题: RE: [Equest-users] Question about air-cooled heat pump

Agreed, it would help solve the issue to see the project at-hand.

That said, you *should* be able to generate a variety of air-cooled heatpump system configuratinos using the DD wizards.  It might prove helpful to quickly create a separate simple project in that manner, befitting your actual system, to compare wizard-generated inputs against your current project.

NICK CATON, P.E.
Owner

Caton Energy Consulting
  306 N Ferrel

  Olathe, KS  66061

  office:  785.410.3317

www.catonenergy.com

From: Equest-users [mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Jones, Christopher
Sent: Friday, November 27, 2015 7:10 AM
To: 崔航; equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Question about air-cooled heat pump

I suggest posting your .inp and .pd2 file to the egroup. Someone will look at it to determine what might be incorrect.

cid:image003.png at 01D09C46.E75BA0D0

Christopher Jones, P.Eng. 
Senior Engineer

WSP Canada Inc.

2300 Yonge Street, Suite 2300

Toronto, ON M4P 1E4
T +1 416-644-4226

F +1 416-487-9766

C +1 416-697-0056

www.wspgroup.com <http://www.wspgroup.com/>  

From: Equest-users [mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of ??
Sent: Friday, November 27, 2015 1:54 AM
To: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: [Equest-users] Question about air-cooled heat pump

Dear eQuest users

Recently, I got a problem when I try to simulate an air-cooled heat pump. Since we cannot choose air-cooled heat pump under wizard mode, I try to set it under detailed mode. What I have done:

1. Switch the default 'chilled water loop' to '2-pipe loop';

2. Switch the chiller type to 'heat pump';

3. Switch the HW loop to 'chilled water loop' in air-side system;

However, when I try to switch the condenser type to 'air cooled', an error is shown like 'assigned symbol air-cooled is of an incompatible type'. Does anyone be confused by this situation? I guess someone may have solution for this.

Regards

Hang Cui

e-mail: bj_hangcui at sina.com

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