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<p>Holly</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Thanks for providing the background on such an interesting
approach. Do you end up with a map of COPs at different operating
conditions in your spreadsheets, especially for 2? Is that
something you could share?</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Jason<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 4/11/2025 4:27 PM, Samuelson, Holly
via Bldg-sim wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:BL0PR07MB5234E83B2C41991940BBF4889DB62@BL0PR07MB5234.namprd07.prod.outlook.com">
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Hi Jason,</div>
<div class="elementToProof"
style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
Regarding modeling the efficiency of equipment...</div>
<div class="elementToProof"
style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
It depends on whether you're modeling a specific system for a
specific building project, or if you're trying to model
generalized performance, for example for research. I'll comment
on the latter scenario. For generalized research purposes,
where we don't know the exact heat pump system and
configuration, my team has found that energy simulation results
are too sensitive to many of the heat pump details in the energy
model. Therefore, to avoid our results being overly-specific to
one heat pump model and configuration we've done one of the
following two things.</div>
<div class="elementToProof"
style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
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<div class="elementToProof">We've output the annual heating
and cooling demands from tour energy model, then applied the
heat pump heating or cooling COPs in a spreadsheet. We've
found the COPs from a published study with realized,
weather-dependent, COPs (from representative climates and
buildings)</div>
<div class="elementToProof"><br>
</div>
</li>
<li
style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<div class="elementToProof">We've also done this with hourly
performance, based on realized, weather-dependent COPs at
different temperatures from representative field studies.
For interpolation, we've calculated the maximum possible COP
(based on the Carnot Cycle) for each time step, then scaled
those values down to something more realistic, based on the
results from the published field studies.</div>
<div class="elementToProof"><br>
</div>
</li>
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Hope this helps.</div>
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Best,</div>
<div class="elementToProof"
style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
Holly</div>
<div class="elementToProof"
style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
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<br>
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<p class="elementToProof"
style="text-align: left; margin: 0px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">
<span style="color: black;"><img
alt="A black and white letter h
Description automatically generated" data-olk-copy-source="MessageBody"
width="56" height="67" size="4560"
contenttype="image/png"
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data-outlook-trace="F:2|T:2"
src="cid:part1.DefO80ou.T9EdQge0@gard.com" class=""></span></p>
</td>
<td class="elementToProof"
style="width: 454.444px; height: 84.6667px; text-align: left; padding-right: 5.4pt; padding-left: 5.4pt; vertical-align: top; word-break: break-word; box-sizing: border-box;">
<p class="elementToProof"
style="text-align: left; margin: 0px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">
<span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;"><b>Holly
Samuelson</b></span></p>
<p class="elementToProof"
style="text-align: left; margin: 0px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">
<span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;">Associate
Professor of Architecture</span></p>
<p class="elementToProof"
style="text-align: left; margin: 0px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">
<span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;">Harvard
University | Graduate School of Design </span></p>
<p class="elementToProof"
style="text-align: left; margin: 0px;"><span
style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><a
href="http://www.hollysamuelson.com/"
id="OWA4b496ed7-cc44-0b11-ab88-26eab5345110"
class="OWAAutoLink" style="margin: 0px;"
moz-do-not-send="true">www.hollysamuelson.com</a></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
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<span style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><i>Unless
otherwise noted, I do not expect a reply outside your normal
working hours. </i></span></div>
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<br>
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<br>
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<br>
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<div dir="ltr" id="divRplyFwdMsg"><span
style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><b>From:</b> Bldg-sim
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org"><bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org></a> on behalf of
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:bldg-sim-request@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim-request@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:bldg-sim-request@lists.onebuilding.org"><bldg-sim-request@lists.onebuilding.org></a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, April 10, 2025 4:00 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org"><bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Bldg-sim Digest, Vol 209, Issue 2</span>
<div> </div>
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Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. How do you model minimum and high efficiency DX cooling
and<br>
heat pump equipment? (Jason Glazer)<br>
2. Re: How do you model minimum and high efficiency DX
cooling<br>
and heat pump equipment? (<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:chris.malcolm.yates@gmail.com">chris.malcolm.yates@gmail.com</a>)<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2025 08:28:44 -0500<br>
From: Jason Glazer <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:jglazer@gard.com"><jglazer@gard.com></a><br>
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:bldg-sim@onebuilding.org">bldg-sim@onebuilding.org</a><br>
Subject: [Bldg-sim] How do you model minimum and high efficiency
DX<br>
cooling and heat pump equipment?<br>
Message-ID:
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:bf88e843-c541-47e9-9462-0ff92a23c74a@gard.com"><bf88e843-c541-47e9-9462-0ff92a23c74a@gard.com></a><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed<br>
<br>
I just posted a question on unmet hours:<br>
<br>
<a
href="https://unmethours.com/question/101487/how-do-you-model-minimum-and-high-efficiency-dx-cooling-and-heat-pump-equipment/"
id="OWA769e4e99-56a8-a561-a3d7-5feff22b1527"
class="OWAAutoLink moz-txt-link-freetext"
data-auth="NotApplicable" moz-do-not-send="true">https://unmethours.com/question/101487/how-do-you-model-minimum-and-high-efficiency-dx-cooling-and-heat-pump-equipment/</a><br>
<br>
"I?m trying to get an understanding of the practice of<br>
modelers when comparing minimum efficiency and<br>
high-efficiency DX equipment and heat pumps for different<br>
applications. I know that detailed performance data is<br>
sometimes difficult to get. How successful have you been in<br>
trying to get detailed performance data from vendors? If you<br>
can?t get data like that, how do you model the equipment?<br>
How do you model the indoor fan? If you know it is<br>
multispeed, how do you figure out those details? What if all<br>
you have is the AHRI data (EER/EER2, SEER2/IEER, COP at<br>
17/47, capacities, full load/intermediate/minimum airflows)<br>
what assumptions do you have to make? What performance<br>
curves do you use? If you can get data from the<br>
manufacturer, what assumptions do you still need to make? Is<br>
it different for residential size equipment than commercial?"<br>
<br>
If you can respond to this email or post a response on<br>
unmethours, I would appreciate it.<br>
<br>
Thanks<br>
<br>
Jsaon<br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
Jason Glazer, P.E., BEMP, GARD Analytics, ASHRAE 209 chair<br>
Admin for onebuilding.org building performance mailing lists<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 2<br>
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2025 15:47:12 +0100<br>
From: <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:chris.malcolm.yates@gmail.com"><chris.malcolm.yates@gmail.com></a><br>
To: "'Jason Glazer'" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:jglazer@gard.com"><jglazer@gard.com></a>,
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:bldg-sim@onebuilding.org"><bldg-sim@onebuilding.org></a><br>
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] How do you model minimum and high
efficiency<br>
DX cooling and heat pump equipment?<br>
Message-ID: <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:000801dbaa27$72659cf0$5730d6d0$@gmail.com"><000801dbaa27$72659cf0$5730d6d0$@gmail.com></a><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"<br>
<br>
Hi Jason,<br>
<br>
I asked this question over a decade ago to a couple of different
suppliers in the UK. What intrigued me was the very high
efficiency that suppliers (e.g., Mitsubishi, Daikin) quoted -
figures that we just plugged into building code calculations.
Based on these figures it seemed like a no-brainer to just rip
out centrifugal chillers and replace them with acres of DX
systems! My enquiries came to little. The only interesting thing
that I got (from a Danish academic) was that the market was very
Germany-centric which resulted in SEER & COP being
established at what seemed like, for the UK at least, quite
extreme temperature bins.<br>
<br>
The impression I got is that, locally, there is some design
experience within the sales teams but it's limited to sizing.
The best I got back in terms of energy was something along the
lines of "we've got some boffins over in Japan, we can try
asking them."<br>
<br>
I don't doubt that they have some very clever people. Are they
clever enough to get centrifugal-like performance out of a
scroll compressor? I don't know. Reading your message, it's
interesting to see that maybe the US market is subject to the
same "black box" issues!<br>
<br>
Good luck. I'll keep an eye on this thread and Unmet hours.<br>
<br>
Cheers<br>
<br>
Chris<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Bldg-sim <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org"><bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org></a> On
Behalf Of Jason Glazer via Bldg-sim<br>
Sent: 10 April 2025 14:29<br>
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:bldg-sim@onebuilding.org">bldg-sim@onebuilding.org</a><br>
Subject: [Bldg-sim] How do you model minimum and high efficiency
DX cooling and heat pump equipment?<br>
<br>
I just posted a question on unmet hours:<br>
<br>
<a
href="https://unmethours.com/question/101487/how-do-you-model-minimum-and-high-efficiency-dx-cooling-and-heat-pump-equipment/"
id="OWA762b399a-8678-482e-b0a4-1e5d377a3f28"
class="OWAAutoLink moz-txt-link-freetext"
data-auth="NotApplicable" moz-do-not-send="true">https://unmethours.com/question/101487/how-do-you-model-minimum-and-high-efficiency-dx-cooling-and-heat-pump-equipment/</a><br>
<br>
"I?m trying to get an understanding of the practice of modelers
when comparing minimum efficiency and high-efficiency DX
equipment and heat pumps for different applications. I know that
detailed performance data is sometimes difficult to get. How
successful have you been in trying to get detailed performance
data from vendors? If you can?t get data like that, how do you
model the equipment?<br>
How do you model the indoor fan? If you know it is multispeed,
how do you figure out those details? What if all you have is the
AHRI data (EER/EER2, SEER2/IEER, COP at 17/47, capacities, full
load/intermediate/minimum airflows) what assumptions do you have
to make? What performance curves do you use? If you can get data
from the manufacturer, what assumptions do you still need to
make? Is it different for residential size equipment than
commercial?"<br>
<br>
If you can respond to this email or post a response on
unmethours, I would appreciate it.<br>
<br>
Thanks<br>
<br>
Jsaon<br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
Jason Glazer, P.E., BEMP, GARD Analytics, ASHRAE 209 chair Admin
for onebuilding.org building performance mailing lists<br>
<br>
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End of Bldg-sim Digest, Vol 209, Issue 2<br>
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</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="60">--
Jason Glazer, P.E., BEMP, GARD Analytics, ASHRAE 209 chair
Admin for onebuilding.org building performance mailing lists
</pre>
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