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Hi Jason,</div>
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For #2, yes, we end up with different estimated heat pump COPs at different operating conditions. This paper shows what that might look like. </div>
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<a href="https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352484725000125#fig0030" id="OWA06054e29-222f-b6e6-4b03-b9ce57895c51" class="OWAAutoLink elementToProof">Optimizing window solar heat gain coefficient for energy and carbon performance in a changing
context of electrification and decarbonization - ScienceDirect</a></div>
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Best,</div>
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Holly</div>
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<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><b>From:</b> Bldg-sim <bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org> on behalf of bldg-sim-request@lists.onebuilding.org <bldg-sim-request@lists.onebuilding.org><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, April 14, 2025 4:00 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org <bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Bldg-sim Digest, Vol 209, Issue 4</span>
<div> </div>
</div>
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Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. Re: Bldg-sim Digest, Vol 209, Issue 2 (Jason Glazer)<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2025 06:28:39 -0500<br>
From: Jason Glazer <jglazer@gard.com><br>
To: bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Bldg-sim Digest, Vol 209, Issue 2<br>
Message-ID: <2eed702c-fc4d-4475-aa3f-0cc45d5e32e7@gard.com><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"<br>
<br>
Holly<br>
<br>
<br>
Thanks for providing the background on such an interesting<br>
approach. Do you end up with a map of COPs at different<br>
operating conditions in your spreadsheets, especially for 2?<br>
Is that something you could share?<br>
<br>
<br>
Jason<br>
<br>
<br>
On 4/11/2025 4:27 PM, Samuelson, Holly via Bldg-sim wrote:<br>
> Hi Jason,<br>
> Regarding modeling the efficiency of equipment...<br>
> It depends on whether you're modeling a specific system<br>
> for a specific building project, or if you're trying to<br>
> model generalized performance, for example for research.<br>
> I'll comment on the latter scenario.? For generalized<br>
> research purposes, where we don't know the exact heat pump<br>
> system and configuration, my team has found that energy<br>
> simulation results are too sensitive to many of the heat<br>
> pump details in the energy model.? Therefore, to avoid our<br>
> results being overly-specific to one heat pump model and<br>
> configuration we've done one of the following two things.<br>
><br>
> 1.<br>
> We've output the annual heating and cooling demands<br>
> from tour energy model, then applied the heat pump<br>
> heating or cooling COPs ?in a spreadsheet.? We've<br>
> found the COPs from a published study with realized,<br>
> weather-dependent, COPs (from representative climates<br>
> and buildings)<br>
><br>
> 2.<br>
> We've also done this with hourly performance, based on<br>
> realized, weather-dependent COPs at different<br>
> temperatures from representative field studies. For<br>
> interpolation, we've calculated the maximum possible<br>
> COP (based on the Carnot Cycle) for each time step,<br>
> then scaled those values down to something more<br>
> realistic, based on the results from the published<br>
> field studies.<br>
><br>
> Hope this helps.<br>
> Best,<br>
> Holly<br>
><br>
><br>
> A black and white letter h Description automatically generated<br>
><br>
> <br>
><br>
> *Holly Samuelson*<br>
><br>
> Associate Professor of Architecture<br>
><br>
> Harvard University | Graduate?School of?Design<br>
><br>
> <a href="http://www.hollysamuelson.com" id="OWAc0861dc4-6060-13fe-b123-ed4a72fd344f" class="OWAAutoLink" data-auth="NotApplicable">
www.hollysamuelson.com</a> <<a href="http://www.hollysamuelson.com/" id="OWA97eaec9a-87f7-22b9-e271-13d28d282f06" class="OWAAutoLink" data-auth="NotApplicable">http://www.hollysamuelson.com/</a>><br>
><br>
> /Unless otherwise noted, I do not expect a reply outside<br>
> your normal working hours. /<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> ------------------------------------------------------------<br>
> *From:*?Bldg-sim <bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org><br>
> on behalf of bldg-sim-request@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
> <bldg-sim-request@lists.onebuilding.org><br>
> *Sent:*?Thursday, April 10, 2025 4:00 PM<br>
> *To:* bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
> <bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org><br>
> *Subject:*?Bldg-sim Digest, Vol 209, Issue 2<br>
> Send Bldg-sim mailing list submissions to<br>
> bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
><br>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit<br>
> <a href="http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org" id="OWA6537b4fa-963a-90e2-e62d-5639cad3ff79" class="OWAAutoLink" data-auth="NotApplicable">
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> <<a href="http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org" id="OWA525b5a43-a086-dfc4-cea8-7871d8baf557" class="OWAAutoLink" data-auth="NotApplicable">http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org</a>><br>
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to<br>
> bldg-sim-request@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
><br>
> You can reach the person managing the list at<br>
> bldg-sim-owner@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
><br>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more<br>
> specific<br>
> than "Re: Contents of Bldg-sim digest..."<br>
><br>
><br>
> Today's Topics:<br>
><br>
> ?? 1. How do you model minimum and high efficiency DX<br>
> cooling and<br>
> ????? heat pump equipment? (Jason Glazer)<br>
> ?? 2. Re: How do you model minimum and high efficiency DX<br>
> cooling<br>
> ????? and heat pump equipment? (chris.malcolm.yates@gmail.com)<br>
><br>
><br>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
><br>
> Message: 1<br>
> Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2025 08:28:44 -0500<br>
> From: Jason Glazer <jglazer@gard.com><br>
> To: bldg-sim@onebuilding.org<br>
> Subject: [Bldg-sim] How do you model minimum and high<br>
> efficiency DX<br>
> ??????? cooling and heat pump equipment?<br>
> Message-ID: <bf88e843-c541-47e9-9462-0ff92a23c74a@gard.com><br>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed<br>
><br>
> I just posted a question on unmet hours:<br>
><br>
> <a href="https://unmethours.com/question/101487/how-do-you-model-minimum-and-high-efficiency-dx-cooling-and-heat-pump-equipment/" id="OWA247566b3-9ac9-622e-c657-8b0247dc4968" class="OWAAutoLink" data-auth="NotApplicable">
https://unmethours.com/question/101487/how-do-you-model-minimum-and-high-efficiency-dx-cooling-and-heat-pump-equipment/</a><br>
> <<a href="https://unmethours.com/question/101487/how-do-you-model-minimum-and-high-efficiency-dx-cooling-and-heat-pump-equipment/" id="OWA54283b79-5a75-d08c-75f4-1ad7ae28f909" class="OWAAutoLink" data-auth="NotApplicable">https://unmethours.com/question/101487/how-do-you-model-minimum-and-high-efficiency-dx-cooling-and-heat-pump-equipment/</a>><br>
><br>
> "I?m trying to get an understanding of the practice of<br>
> modelers when comparing minimum efficiency and<br>
> high-efficiency DX equipment and heat pumps for different<br>
> applications. I know that detailed performance data is<br>
> sometimes difficult to get. How successful have you been in<br>
> trying to get detailed performance data from vendors? If you<br>
> can?t get data like that, how do you model the equipment?<br>
> How do you model the indoor fan? If you know it is<br>
> multispeed, how do you figure out those details? What if all<br>
> you have is the AHRI data (EER/EER2, SEER2/IEER, COP at<br>
> 17/47, capacities, full load/intermediate/minimum airflows)<br>
> what assumptions do you have to make? What performance<br>
> curves do you use? If you can get data from the<br>
> manufacturer, what assumptions do you still need to make? Is<br>
> it different for residential size equipment than commercial?"<br>
><br>
> If you can respond to this email or post a response on<br>
> unmethours, I would appreciate it.<br>
><br>
> Thanks<br>
><br>
> Jsaon<br>
><br>
><br>
> --<br>
> Jason Glazer, P.E., BEMP, GARD Analytics, ASHRAE 209 chair<br>
> Admin for onebuilding.org building performance mailing lists<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> ------------------------------<br>
><br>
> Message: 2<br>
> Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2025 15:47:12 +0100<br>
> From: <chris.malcolm.yates@gmail.com><br>
> To: "'Jason Glazer'" <jglazer@gard.com>,<br>
> <bldg-sim@onebuilding.org><br>
> Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] How do you model minimum and high<br>
> efficiency<br>
> ??????? DX cooling and heat pump equipment?<br>
> Message-ID: <000801dbaa27$72659cf0$5730d6d0$@gmail.com><br>
> Content-Type: text/plain;?????? charset="UTF-8"<br>
><br>
> Hi Jason,<br>
><br>
> I asked this question over a decade ago to a couple of<br>
> different suppliers in the UK. What intrigued me was the<br>
> very high efficiency that suppliers (e.g., Mitsubishi,<br>
> Daikin) quoted - figures that we just plugged into<br>
> building code calculations. Based on these figures it<br>
> seemed like a no-brainer to just rip out centrifugal<br>
> chillers and replace them with acres of DX systems! My<br>
> enquiries came to little. The only interesting thing that<br>
> I got (from a Danish academic) was that the market was<br>
> very Germany-centric which resulted in SEER & COP being<br>
> established at what seemed like, for the UK at least,<br>
> quite extreme temperature bins.<br>
><br>
> The impression I got is that, locally, there is some<br>
> design experience within the sales teams but it's limited<br>
> to sizing. The best I got back in terms of energy was<br>
> something along the lines of "we've got some boffins over<br>
> in Japan, we can try asking them."<br>
><br>
> I don't doubt that they have some very clever people. Are<br>
> they clever enough to get centrifugal-like performance out<br>
> of a scroll compressor? I don't know. Reading your<br>
> message, it's interesting to see that maybe the US market<br>
> is subject to the same "black box" issues!<br>
><br>
> Good luck. I'll keep an eye on this thread and Unmet hours.<br>
><br>
> Cheers<br>
><br>
> Chris<br>
><br>
> -----Original Message-----<br>
> From: Bldg-sim <bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org> On<br>
> Behalf Of Jason Glazer via Bldg-sim<br>
> Sent: 10 April 2025 14:29<br>
> To: bldg-sim@onebuilding.org<br>
> Subject: [Bldg-sim] How do you model minimum and high<br>
> efficiency DX cooling and heat pump equipment?<br>
><br>
> I just posted a question on unmet hours:<br>
><br>
> <a href="https://unmethours.com/question/101487/how-do-you-model-minimum-and-high-efficiency-dx-cooling-and-heat-pump-equipment/" id="OWAfc4ca4eb-08d1-2566-4da9-5c65800d81fd" class="OWAAutoLink" data-auth="NotApplicable">
https://unmethours.com/question/101487/how-do-you-model-minimum-and-high-efficiency-dx-cooling-and-heat-pump-equipment/</a><br>
> <<a href="https://unmethours.com/question/101487/how-do-you-model-minimum-and-high-efficiency-dx-cooling-and-heat-pump-equipment/" id="OWA9bd45a7a-d8d3-2b3e-19d4-115277c81642" class="OWAAutoLink" data-auth="NotApplicable">https://unmethours.com/question/101487/how-do-you-model-minimum-and-high-efficiency-dx-cooling-and-heat-pump-equipment/</a>><br>
><br>
> "I?m trying to get an understanding of the practice of<br>
> modelers when comparing minimum efficiency and<br>
> high-efficiency DX equipment and heat pumps for different<br>
> applications. I know that detailed performance data is<br>
> sometimes difficult to get. How successful have you been<br>
> in trying to get detailed performance data from vendors?<br>
> If you can?t get data like that, how do you model the<br>
> equipment?<br>
> How do you model the indoor fan? If you know it is<br>
> multispeed, how do you figure out those details? What if<br>
> all you have is the AHRI data (EER/EER2, SEER2/IEER, COP<br>
> at 17/47, capacities, full load/intermediate/minimum<br>
> airflows) what assumptions do you have to make? What<br>
> performance curves do you use? If you can get data from<br>
> the manufacturer, what assumptions do you still need to<br>
> make? Is it different for residential size equipment than<br>
> commercial?"<br>
><br>
> If you can respond to this email or post a response on<br>
> unmethours, I would appreciate it.<br>
><br>
> Thanks<br>
><br>
> Jsaon<br>
><br>
><br>
> --<br>
> Jason Glazer, P.E., BEMP, GARD Analytics, ASHRAE 209 chair<br>
> Admin for onebuilding.org building performance mailing lists<br>
><br>
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--<br>
Jason Glazer, P.E., BEMP, GARD Analytics, ASHRAE 209 chair<br>
Admin for onebuilding.org building performance mailing lists<br>
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