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<p class="MsoNormal">Chris, I’m sorry I didn’t quite understand your scenario before. Something like this, except it would be a heat pump to make hot and cold<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://www.konvekta.ch/integrated-chiller.html">Integrated Chiller - Konvekta AG</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">We’re primarily seeing the runaround type or plate-and-frame direct heat exchange instead of using a heat pump to boost the temperatures, although I can see some appeal.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">What type of buildings are you looking at this for?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">David<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:#1F497D">David S. Eldridge, Jr.</span></b><b><span style="color:#244061">, P</span></b><b><span style="color:#1F497D">.</span></b><b><span style="color:#244061">E</span></b><b><span style="color:#1F497D">.</span></b><b><span style="color:#244061">,
BEMP, BEAP, HBDP, GGA</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Associate</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:4.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#365F91">Direct: (847) 316-92</span><span style="color:#1F497D">24</span><span style="color:#365F91"> | Mobile: (</span><span style="color:#1F497D">773</span><span style="color:#365F91">)
</span><span style="color:#1F497D">490</span><span style="color:#365F91">-</span><span style="color:#1F497D">5038</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:#244061">Grumman/Butkus Associates</span></b><span style="color:gray">
</span><span style="color:#365F91">| 820 Davis Street, Suite 300 | Evanston, IL 60201</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;color:gray">Energy Efficiency Consultants and Sustainable Design Engineers</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="http://grummanbutkus.com/"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;color:gray">grummanbutkus.com</span></a><span style="font-size:9.0pt;color:gray"> |
</span><a href="http://grummanbutkus.com/blog"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;color:gray">Blog</span></a><span style="font-size:9.0pt;color:gray"> |
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</span><a href="https://twitter.com/grummanbutkus"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;color:gray">Twitter</span></a><u><span style="font-size:9.0pt;color:gray"><o:p></o:p></span></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Bldg-sim <bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Chris Yates via Bldg-sim<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, January 18, 2021 6:29 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Jim Dirkes' <jvdirkes2@protonmail.com><br>
<b>Cc:</b> bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] exhaust air liquid heat recovery loop<o:p></o:p></p>
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</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Hi Jim,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">In a generic sense, this is one of a number of different systems that capture exhaust heat via a coil in the exhaust. In the list below I am trying to establish if anybody has
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-GB">Similar systems<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<ol style="margin-top:0in" start="1" type="1">
<li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo3"><span lang="EN-GB">We’ve already seen run-a-round coils described<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo3"><span lang="EN-GB">Exhaust air heat pumps have been a very common system for residential. They tend to use the refrigerant as the heat transfer medium. Some manufacturers of these
units are :<o:p></o:p></span></li><ol style="margin-top:0in" start="1" type="a">
<li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in;mso-list:l2 level2 lfo3"><a href="https://www.ivprodukt.com/products/home-concept-ecoheater"><span lang="EN-GB">https://www.ivprodukt.com/products/home-concept-ecoheater</span></a>
<span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in;mso-list:l2 level2 lfo3"><a href="https://www.nibe.eu/en-eu/products/heat-pumps/exhaust-air-heat-pumps/NIBE-F750-_-237"><span lang="EN-GB">https://www.nibe.eu/en-eu/products/heat-pumps/exhaust-air-heat-pumps/NIBE-F750-_-237</span></a><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></li></ol>
<li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo3"><span lang="EN-GB">Supply and extract air handling with integrated heat pump augmenting (straddling) a plate or wheel heat exchanger. They tend to use the refrigerant as the heat transfer
medium. Some manufacturers of these units are :<o:p></o:p></span></li><ol style="margin-top:0in" start="1" type="a">
<li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in;mso-list:l2 level2 lfo3"><a href="https://www.genvex.com/en/products/air-ventilation---air-heat-pump/premium-preheat-500"><span lang="EN-GB">https://www.genvex.com/en/products/air-ventilation---air-heat-pump/premium-preheat-500</span></a><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in;mso-list:l2 level2 lfo3"><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzVOTjH_GIg&feature=emb_logo&ab_channel=Fl%C3%A4ktGroup"><span lang="EN-GB">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzVOTjH_GIg&feature=emb_logo&ab_channel=Fl%C3%A4ktGroup</span></a><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></li></ol>
</ol>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-GB">The system I’m describing<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">The heat transfer medium is water or brine (like the RAR coil), but this is piped to a compressor remote from the AHU. The attached is a crude mock-up of such a system using IDA’s ESBO interface (this has not been validated).
Apart from a gas boiler for top-up heating, it would be an “all-electric” system. Britain and Scandinavia both have relatively low carbon electricity now. The fact that recovered heat can be re-used in a very general purpose way at a potentially high COP is
quite an attractive idea. We may even pre-heat service hot water. Note also that the sum of UA for all the heaters in the zones will be much bigger than the heater coil’s UA in the AHU itself (meaning supplied heat can be a lower grade). It may also remove
some of the perceived penalties of reheat (i.e. heat pumps simultaneously make both cold and heat).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">I’m searching for an appropriate quote…<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span lang="EN-GB">There are two major products that came out of Berkeley: LSD and UNIX. We don't believe this to be a coincidence.<o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Cheers<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Chris<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Jim Dirkes <<a href="mailto:jvdirkes2@protonmail.com">jvdirkes2@protonmail.com</a>>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 15 January 2021 21:44<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:chris.malcolm.yates@gmail.com">chris.malcolm.yates@gmail.com</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] exhaust air liquid heat recovery loop<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Chris,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">I don't think I understand the system....<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">That clearly means it's not something common for my portion of the world!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">On the other hand, it sounds no different than energy recovery - can you clarify a bit, please?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p style="margin-bottom:6.0pt"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#333333;background:white">… The world is having a crisis of reason. I don’t think the world is having a crisis of faith. If anything, there is plenty of faith around, in both good
and bad things. In some ways, there is altogether too much faith, and too little reason.</span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222;background:white">Jim Dirkes 1631 Acacia Drive NW Grand Rapids, MI 616 450 8653</span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">On Friday, January 15, 2021 8:39 AM, Chris Yates via Bldg-sim <</span><a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org"><span lang="EN-GB">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</span></a><span lang="EN-GB">> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
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<p><span lang="EN-GB">Hi all,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-GB"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-GB">I will resist the temptation to say “happy” new year. Perhaps, for 2021, the expression “moderately relieved” new year is more appropriate (it’s certainly more British). I hope as many of you as possible have avoided covid. I know there
are some members of this list who have not been so fortunate. God speed your recovery.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-GB"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-GB">In IDA ICE, there is an option to model a liquid heat recovery loop in the exhaust of an air handling unit (image attached). In essence, this is just putting a cooling coil in the exhaust. Heating, including heat recovery, is after all
as much a cooling process as it is a heating process. This cooling coil can then integrate with some form of heat recovery/ reversible chiller – a bit like a run-a-round coil heat recovery on steroids!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-GB"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-GB">This works in theory. However, I was just wondering how prevalent it is in practice. Would I be naïve to present this as an option to clients? I know I’ve not come across this in the UK. Is it just a Scandinavian thing?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-GB"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-GB">I’d be very grateful to hear of any projects that have successfully (or unsuccessfully!) integrated heat recovery via exhaust air liquid loops.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-GB"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-GB">It seems to me that the benefits could be manifold:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l3 level1 lfo7">
<span lang="EN-GB">“decoupling”: Heat recovery potential increases as the building gets warm, but with traditional plate or thermal wheel heat recovery the demand for it simultaneously decreases. By buffering the heat to water, or re-directing it elsewhere
(e.g. SHW) heat recovery becomes more general purpose.<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l3 level1 lfo7">
<span lang="EN-GB">A useful load for the chiller during periods of low chiller load. There are well understood problems with chillers cycling on/off during periods of low load – aka “low delta T syndrowm”. By dual purposing chiller equipment for heat recovery,
it provides a stable baseload for chillers during these periods.<o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
<p><span lang="EN-GB"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-GB">Kind regards<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-GB"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-GB">Chris<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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