<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<style type="text/css" style="display:none;"> P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;} </style>
</head>
<body dir="ltr">
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
..and since you people are distracting me enough to get me thinking about a problem that I have rarely seen...</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
In the EnergyPlus world:</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<ol>
<li>As Julien suggests, we could "play" with infiltration. the ZoneInfiltration:EffectiveLeakageArea object can be scheduled, perhaps, with higher rates in colder weather for opened windows</li><li>I think we could also create zones in such a way as to represent our understanding of the wild coil areas and assign a fictitious zone temperature setpoint of, say, 90F. At the same time, we could schedule the boiler's operation for cold weather only (which
is likely to be the case anyway or people would be screaming at the building operator in the warmer months)<br>
</li><li>Alternatively, some zones could have their heating setpoint overridden by an EMS routine based on certain weather conditions. We could do the same for infiltration.</li><li>Another possibility that comes to mind is to "schedule" boiler efficiency via EMS to be lower during colder weather. This would be a "catchall" value that would be used to calibrate the model
<span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); display: inline !important">
(with brute force) </span>to utility bill actual values.</li></ol>
<div>ps, This sort of issue demonstrates the power of the modeling community to share experience and creativity - so that everyone becomes smarter and better able to provide real solutions! Let's wring it out.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>pps, Cory, can you share more details for the IES users?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>ppps, Funny to hear someone who lives in France write "y'all" <span id="š" title=":slight_smile:">
š</span><span id="š" title=":blush:">š. Your time in NYC changed you! (But you must have traveled South to hear that term very often)</span></div>
</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<div id="Signature">
<div></div>
<div></div>
<div></div>
<div></div>
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt; color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<div style="margin:0px; font-size:15px; color:rgb(33,33,33); text-align:start; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
James V Dirkes II, PE, BEMP, BCxP</div>
<div style="margin:0px; font-size:15px; color:rgb(33,33,33); text-align:start; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
Team Lead - Building Performance</div>
<div style="margin:0px; font-size:15px; color:rgb(33,33,33); text-align:start; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; background-color:rgb(255,255,255); display:inline!important">616 450 8653</span></div>
<div style="margin:0px; font-size:15px; color:rgb(33,33,33); text-align:start; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
Foresight Management</div>
<div style="margin:0px; font-size:15px; color:rgb(33,33,33); text-align:start; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="margin:0px; font-size:16px; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:blue; text-decoration:underline; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><a href="https://fsmgmt.co/" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" style="margin:0px; font-size:16px; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(149,79,114); text-decoration:underline; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">https://fsmgmt.co/</a></span></div>
<div style="margin:0px; font-size:15px; color:rgb(33,33,33); text-align:start; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<br>
</div>
<div style="margin:0px; font-size:15px; color:rgb(33,33,33); text-align:start; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:11pt"><b>Coffee Conversation:</b></span></div>
<div style="margin:0px; font-size:15px; color:rgb(33,33,33); text-align:start; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:11pt">
<p style="margin:0in 0in 6pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
<span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(51,51,51); background:white"></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:"Times New Roman",serif; margin-bottom:6.0pt; text-autospace:none">
<span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:#333333; background:white"></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:"Times New Roman",serif; margin-bottom:6.0pt; text-autospace:none">
<span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:#333333; background:white">But to handle human lives with no agreement as to
<i><b>what human beings are</b></i> or <b><i>what the purpose of life is</i> </b>
- that is a formula for chaos.</span></p>
</span>
<p></p>
<p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div id="appendonsend"></div>
<hr style="display:inline-block;width:98%" tabindex="-1">
<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size:11pt" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> Bldg-sim <bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org> on behalf of Julien Marrec via Bldg-sim <bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, June 21, 2019 2:56 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Nicholas Caton<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Nicholas Caton via Equest-users; bldg-sim@onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] [Equest-users] BEST PRACTICES: Wild Coils</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<style>
<!--
@font-face
{font-family:Wingdings}
@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math"}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri}
p.x_MsoNormal, li.x_MsoNormal, div.x_MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif}
a:link, span.x_MsoHyperlink
{color:#0563C1;
text-decoration:underline}
a:visited, span.x_MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{color:#954F72;
text-decoration:underline}
p.x_MsoListParagraph, li.x_MsoListParagraph, div.x_MsoListParagraph
{margin-top:0in;
margin-right:0in;
margin-bottom:0in;
margin-left:.5in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif}
span.x_EmailStyle17
{font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:windowtext}
.x_MsoChpDefault
{}
@page WordSection1
{margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in}
div.x_WordSection1
{}
ol
{margin-bottom:0in}
ul
{margin-bottom:0in}
-->
</style>
<div lang="EN-US" link="#0563C1" vlink="#954F72">
<div dir="auto">Hey Nick,<br>
<br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">TL;DR I usually play on the infiltration rate, bumping it higher as needed.<br>
<br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Something I've encountered a lot while working on Multifamily existing buildings in NYC, where you'll encounter most often than not steam systems, one or two pipe. The "wild" coil situation is exacerbated to unreal levels, because these systems
are very old, out of tune, hard to balance, and the ancient knowledge of steam systems is getting lost.<br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Part of our audit checklist in the winter involved walking around the building to map the windows (usually no building plans exists...) and flag the ones that were opened (you could get in the 30% easily even a deadly cold winter day. I've
personally lived on a run down building when i first got to nyc and on a well below freezing point our windows were opened to avoid sweating to death: the good old "double-hung zone valve" was the only option we had).<br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">We'd take space temperature readings (and ideally install sensors for a couple of weeks), to set the thermostat setpoints accordingly, and play with infiltration to match our understanding of how people reacted.<br>
<br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">The opposite is true too though, I've seen people run their gas stoves with the door open as a supplemental space heater because it was too damn cold. The cooking gas account is more often than not separated from the boiler room one in nyc thankfully,
so if you find a huge spike in the cooking gas bill in the winter (a HDD correlated component of your bill when you run a regression) it probably can't be explained by "people don't go out as much and stay in to cook".<br>
<br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Just my two cents/a rant, but i hope this sparks a conversation anyway :)<br>
<br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Y'all enjoy the weekend!<br>
<br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Best,<br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Julien<br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">--<br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Sent from a mobile device, please excuse the brevity.<br>
<br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Julien Marrec, EBCP, BPI MFBA<br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Owner<br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><img width="56" height="19" data-outlook-trace="F:1|T:1" src="cid:ii_a4901c04e7bd42fe"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Direct: +33 6 95 14 42 13<br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Website: <a href="http://www.effibem.com"></a><a href="http://www.effibem.com">www.effibem.com</a><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">LinkedIn (<a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/julienmarrec">en</a>) | (<a href="https://fr.linkedin.com/in/julienmarrec/fr">fr</a>)</div>
<div class="x_gmail_quote">On Jun 21, 2019, at 19:37, Nicholas Caton via Equest-users <<a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>> wrote:
<blockquote class="x_gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204); padding-left:1ex">
<div class="x_WordSection1">
<p class="x_MsoNormal">Apologies for the cross-post, however I wanted to ask this question from 2 angles and I feel both communities may benefit from the discussion (if I can spark one).</p>
<p></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"></p>
<p> </p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">A common reality Iāve observed with āreal-worldā hydronic systems is that system coils and baseboard/radiator loops fall into a state coined
<u>wild coils</u>. Rather than modulating flow to maintain a measured supply air or room temperature setpoint, flow is
<u>uncontrolled</u>. A heating or reheat coil for example will end up dumping heat at all times the associated circulation loop is active, independent of its associated systemās fan operation, cooling coil activity, or thermostat signals requesting more/less
heating. Occupants in response to wild coils, when they cay, will end up using windows, propping open doorways, plugging in local space heaters / circ fans, and generally suffering in terms of comfort. In just about every case, this scenario presents a win-win
in terms of improved occupant comfort potential in parallel with energy savings potential for whoever is paying the bills.</p>
<p></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"></p>
<p> </p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">Causes for this situation Iāve encountered more than once include:</p>
<p></p>
<ul type="disc" style="margin-top:0in">
<li class="x_MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in">Manual Control valves left in an open state, with dusty cobwebs suggesting their presence is unknown to the occupants/building operators
<p></p>
</li><li class="x_MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in">Automated valves (electric or pneumatic) which have become mechanically stuck in an open, or partially open position
<p></p>
</li><li class="x_MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in">Automated valves (electric or pneumatic) which are otherwise busted due to upstream pneumatic line/system issues or mechanical failures of the moving parts at the valve
<p></p>
</li><li class="x_MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in">A valve was never designed and/or installed and/or wired up for control in the first place
<p></p>
</li></ul>
<p class="x_MsoListParagraph"></p>
<p> </p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">For all of this however, I have always struggled in approximating the energy and comfort impacts of āwildā coils in my building energy simulations. Quantifying this impact with some degree of confidence is difficult, but desirable in
cases where I am calibrating to existing utility bills (read: always) and/or asserting the utility savings and comfort improvement impact for fixing/addressing such situations.</p>
<p></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"></p>
<p> </p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><b>For the [bldg-sim] family:</b> Are there any 3<sup>rd</sup> party tools, models, or other energy simulation platforms with explicit options for evaluating the comfort and energy impacts of wild coil situations? Is there any research
I could be pointed towards exploring this topic?</p>
<p></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"></p>
<p> </p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><b>For the [eQuest-users] crowd:</b> Can anyone share a best practice or recommendation for simulating this sort of problem-state within a doe2/eQuest model? As far as I know, the native input options are essentially limited to a pair
of āworkingā coil modulation states: TWO-WAY and THREE-WAY. Hereās an example doe2 reference entry, with language that repeats a couple times over for different scenarios:</p>
<p></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><img width="639" height="253" id="x_Picture_x0020_3" style="width:6.6562in; height:2.6354in" data-outlook-trace="F:0|T:1" src="cid:image003.png@01D5281B.FBA76FA0"></p>
<p></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">I personally have taken different approaches, with none being particularly satisfactory. These have included introducing process loads onto the loops concurrently with āfreeā internal energy source definitions to get those losses dumped
into the spaces experiencing discomfort. I have also played with artificially bumping the thermostat schedules around to reflect measured, uncomfortable temperature statesā¦</p>
<p></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"></p>
<p> </p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">Any solutions/experiences/shared-commiseration would be very welcome!
</p>
<p></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"></p>
<p> </p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">~Nick</p>
<p></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"></p>
<p> </p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:#3A7A46"><img width="726" height="9" id="x_Picture_x0020_1" alt="cid:image005.png@01D515A3.47EDD880" style="width:7.5625in; height:.0937in" data-outlook-trace="F:0|T:1" src="cid:image001.png@01D52816.1E40EA60"></span></p>
<p></p>
<p></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:#3A7A46">Nick Caton, P.E., BEMP</span></b><span style="color:#3A7A46"></span></p>
<p></p>
<p></p>
<table class="x_MsoNormalTable" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" width="724" style="width:543.0pt; border-collapse:collapse">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td width="230" valign="top" style="width:172.3pt; padding:0in 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:#626469"> Senior Energy Engineer</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:#1F497D"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:#626469"> Regional Energy Engineering Manager</span></p>
<p></p>
<p></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:#626469"> Energy and Sustainability Services</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:#1F497D"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:#626469"> Energy Performance Contracting
</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt; color:#1F497D"></span></p>
<p></p>
<p></p>
</td>
<td width="16" valign="top" style="width:11.8pt; padding:0in 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:#57B069">D </span><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:#1F497D"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:#57B069">M </span><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:#1F497D"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:#57B069">F </span><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:#1F497D"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:#57B069">E </span><span style="font-size:9.0pt; color:#1F497D">
</span></p>
<p></p>
<p></p>
</td>
<td width="275" valign="top" style="width:206.5pt; padding:0in 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:#626469">913 . 564 . 6361</span></p>
<p></p>
<p></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:#626469">785 . 410 . 3317</span></p>
<p></p>
<p></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:#626469">913 . 564 . 6380</span></p>
<p></p>
<p></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><u><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:#626469"><a href="mailto:nicholas.caton@se.com"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:#626469">nicholas.caton@se.com</span></a></span></u><span style="font-size:9.0pt; color:#1F497D"></span></p>
<p></p>
<p></p>
</td>
<td width="203" valign="top" style="width:152.4pt; padding:0in 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="x_MsoNormal" align="right" style="text-align:right"><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:#626469">15200 Santa Fe Trail Drive<br>
Suite 204<br>
Lenexa, KS 66219<br>
United States</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt; color:#1F497D"></span></p>
<p></p>
<p></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="height:4.0pt">
<td width="724" colspan="4" valign="top" style="width:543.0pt; padding:0in 0in 0in 0in; height:4.0pt">
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style=""><span style="color:#3A7A46"><img border="0" width="722" height="49" id="x_Picture_x0020_2" alt="cid:image006.png@01D515A3.47EDD880" style="width:7.5208in; height:.5104in" data-outlook-trace="F:0|T:1" src="cid:image002.png@01D52816.1E40EA60"></span></p>
<p></p>
<p></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"></p>
<p> </p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"></p>
<p> </p>
</div>
<pre class="x_blue"><hr><br>Equest-users mailing list<br><a href="http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org">http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org</a><br>To unsubscribe from this mailing list send a blank message to EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG<br></pre>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>