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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">One of the interesting aspects of this is the link to unitary products for instance would include certifications for water-cooled equipment consistent with a
WLHP system as you mentioned Aaron – if the code just said “unitary” it would be clear - it’s only that the Table 8 reference uses the word “air-cooled” instead of applying to all unitary equipment so that a WLHP system seems to be left out of the matrix.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo3"><![if !supportLists]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">1)<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Central CHW & HW w/ FCU – use identical<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Air-cooled unitary – use identical<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo3"><![if !supportLists]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">3)<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">PTHP – use identical<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo3"><![if !supportLists]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">4)<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Other – use through-the-wall baseline<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">It’s strange to me that the WLHP option which I’d consider to be “in the middle” of the options above as sort of an option 1.5 is excluded and then you are left
in “through-the-wall unit purgatory” where the baseline system is partially defined. i.e. if the fully applied system with boilers, chillers, and FCU is on one edge of the range and PTHP are on the other end of the range, why wouldn’t WLHP fit in there?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">That said, it seems to be how it reads. So to your question, you mentioned 8.4.4.9.4 and that your sample compliance building used air-to-air heat pumps with
electric resistance heat, which makes sense that a TTW unit in practice is going to be heat pump and/or electric resistance heat. A furnace option would not be part of a TTW unit either. If the baseline is supposed to make sense that is – I think an argument
could be made that on an annual basis the WLHP system takes primary heat from the boiler more than the compressors for cold climates, but I’m not an expert in NECB so you’d be best positioned to comment there whether it calls for a hybrid system or not.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">It would be pretty contrived to have a baseline that used an air-to-air heat pump as primary and then had auxiliary hot water – in practice any building that
went to the trouble to add the hot water system’s cost would tend to use it as the primary system. The combo that makes practical sense is for the auxiliary heat to be electric resistance.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Bldg-sim [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Aaron Smith via Bldg-sim<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, February 18, 2019 10:44 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Chris Hadlock' <cjhadlock@gmail.com><br>
<b>Cc:</b> bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] NECB - MURB Reference Heating Type<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Hi Chris,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Thanks for your response. It would make sense if the Reference Building were also a WLHP but based on AHRI definitions I think a WHLP is pretty
clearly not:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">a.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">an “<a href="http://www.ahrinet.org/Certification/AHRI-Certification-Programs/Unitary-Air-Conditioner-Equipment">air-cooled unitary</a>”
product,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">b.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">a
<a href="http://www.ahrinet.org/Certification/AHRI-Certification-Programs/Packaged-Terminal-Air-Conditioners">
packaged terminal air conditioner</a> or <a href="http://www.ahrinet.org/Certification/AHRI-Certification-Programs/Packaged-Terminal-Heat-Pumps">
heat pump</a>, or<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">c.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">a fan coil.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">A WLHP is water-cooled unitary product.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">If they simply said “unitary” or “air-cooled or water-cooled unitary” then it would makes sense to me that you model
an identical system but they specifically state “air-cooled unitary”.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Aaron<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<b><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Aaron Smith,</span></b><b><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:navy">
</span></b><i><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:gray">P.Eng<o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
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<i><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:gray">Principal, Mechanical Engineer</span></i><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<i><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:gray">LEED® AP BD+C, BEMP, BEAP, CGD</span></i><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:gray">M&R Engineering Ltd.</span></i><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Chris Hadlock [<a href="mailto:cjhadlock@gmail.com">mailto:cjhadlock@gmail.com</a>]
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<b>Sent:</b> February-18-19 11:27 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Aaron Smith <<a href="mailto:asmith@mreng.ca">asmith@mreng.ca</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] NECB - MURB Reference Heating Type<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA">Hi Aaron,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA">The way I would interpret it is the Reference system will be identical to your Proposed system (i.e. WLHP connected to fossil fuel boiler). If you had a air-source, water-source (i.e. river, lake) or ground-source, then
you would have to worry about auxiliary heating (per Section 8.4.4.13.2). The "through-the-wall" system only applies in the otherwise case (i.e. when your system is not one of the ones listed). <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA">This is my interpretation - I'd be interested to hear others.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA">Chris<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA">On Sun, Feb 17, 2019 at 10:10 PM Aaron Smith via Bldg-sim <<a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-CA">Hello,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-CA"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-CA">I’ve got a question about the NECB Reference Building heating system type for Multi-Unit Residential Buildings. Specifically what should it be when you have
water-loop heat pumps connected to a fossil fuel boiler?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-CA"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-CA">Table 8.4.4.7.-A of the 2015 NECB states that Reference Building HVAC systems for Multi-Unit Residential areas are:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-CA"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-CA">“Where the proposed building or space is heated as well as being cooled with an air-cooled unitary, packaged terminal or room air conditioner (or heat pumps),
or fan coils, the reference building or space's HVAC system shall be modeled as being identical to that of the proposed building or space; otherwise, the reference building or space shall use through-the-wall systems.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-CA"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-CA">I’d consider water-loop heat pumps to be in the “through-the-wall systems” category so the cooling would be air-cooled DX. It doesn’t describe the heating source
for “through-the-wall systems” but 8.4.4.9.4 says that the energy type of the reference building’s heating system shall be identical to the energy type of the proposed building’s heating system. The code considers heat pump to be an energy type so I think
it should be an air-source heat pump. I’m just not sure about the auxiliary heat – electric resistance or hot water?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-CA"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-CA">I tried running this in CAN-QUEST but got some errors. When I run a 4-storey office building with WLHP, the reference building is coming out as air-source heat
pump with electric resistance heat so I’m leaning toward using that. I can see there being an argument for hot water auxiliary heat though based on the proposed building having a fuel-fired boiler (to avoid fuel switching).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-CA"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-CA">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-CA">Aaron<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-CA"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<b> Aaron Smith,<span style="color:navy"> </span></b><i><span style="color:gray">P.Eng</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
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<i><span style="color:gray"> Principal, Mechanical Engineer</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
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</span></i><i><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:gray">LEED® AP BD+C, BEMP, BEAP, CGD</span></i><span lang="EN-CA"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="FR" style="color:gray"> t: (902) 422-7393</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span lang="FR" style="color:gray"> f: (902) 423-4945</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="FR" style="color:gray"> e:</span><span lang="FR" style="color:navy">
</span><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:navy"><a href="mailto:asmith@mreng.ca" target="_blank" title="blocked::mailto:asmith@mreng.ca"><span lang="FR">asmith@mreng.ca</span></a></span><span lang="EN-CA"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><i><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:#833C0B">
</span></i></b><b><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:navy"><a href="http://www.mreng.ca/" target="_blank">www.mreng.ca</a>
</span></b><span lang="EN-CA"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-CA"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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